Important note on the Zivkovic Lexan mask

[achilleus]

Wow, you're like George Lucas, oblivious to what the majority of people actually feel about what you've created...

I'm sure you're products are well made, and people really seem to like your grips, but honestly do you really think that the majority of competitive fencers
like the lexan mask? Sorry to burst your bubble, but it isn't a popular concept.

I remember being in Germany years ago, and hearing the Germans referring to the one fencer who had one as Darth Vader. It wasn't a compliment. They also took great delight in scratching the faceplate with direct hits.

Originally Posted by Bran

I'm sorry, but saying the entire "fencing community" is against the mask is just plain silly. You do not speak on its behalf.

No. You're right. There are some that like the mask. There's one guy in my region who owns one. I also met an Asian foilist, I believe Tse, who wore one...

Other than that, I only see sabeur's wearing them.. I don't know of anyone who sings it's praises...

Originally Posted by Bran

You "hate" the mask, but still haven't said - for your own personal reasons - why. Only "they said", "they said".... Who said?

Personally, I wear my safety equipment for just that. Safety. Not for looks, not for TV, not for any other reason than safety. It's not yet proven that these masks are safer, or even as safe. Having tried on several, and even fenced in, I actually think it was Zivkovic mask, one once many moons, ago I can tell you I appreciated the visibilty without the mesh, hated the large blind spot, breathability and weight.

As for they, every fencer I've spoken with who's worn one. Oh, and if you search, there was a link to an article were Sada Jacobson was quoted talking about the deficiencies of the mask.

Originally Posted by Bran

I wonder - how did putting on a mesh wire mask and picking up a weapon for the first time feel? Let me guess - for you it felt completely normal. And I am sure the never was any kind of problem of weight, breathing, and blind spot with any other traditional mask? Only for the transparent mask, right?

The first time I tried on a mask, I was nervous, excited and it all felt exhilarating. The first time I tried on a LP comfort plus, I thought wow, it's so light and comfortable it makes my Allstar one feel like crap.

Originally Posted by Bran

Simply put, it takes time to adjust to sporting equipment, old and new.

I agree, however usually the adjustment is a step up in performance. This is not neccessarily the case.

Originally Posted by Bran

Some customers have come back to us about the fogging. We try to tell them to use the anti-fogging solution and adjust their breathing downward more. Once they can train themselves to adjust their breathing then they are fine.

Again. Thanks a lot. It's great having useful info from the source.

Originally Posted by Bran

Incidentally, at the IFA Championships at the end of February Sada and Emily Jacobsen were both wearing the mask. And this past weekend at the Arnold Fencing Classic Ivan Lee was wearing the mask. They did not have to, but they did. Does that mean anything to you?

Not really. What will mean something to me is when the committee's can verify the safety of my face in that mask, until then I am firmly with the majority of the fencing community.

[Alex_Paul]

I agree with a fair portion of what you have said, most of the fencing community don't want these masks. But:

Originally Posted by achilleus

Personally, I wear my safety equipment for just that. Safety. Not for looks, not for TV, not for any other reason than safety. It's not yet proven that these masks are safer, or even as safe.

Is just not true. These masks have been tested more rigorously than regular FIE masks and are just as safe. The only argument for their percieved lack of safety is that they can be scratched and cracks can propogate from the scratch.
An un scratched Lexan mask is safer than a regular FIE mesh mask.

[telkanuru]

Yet it is not the single blow of doom that is a concern. I've seen traditional FIE masks that are 10 years old and going strong. Will the same be true for the lexan ones? I dosn't matter if it can take a 1000kN blow 450 times, if it fails on time 451. Again, there's no way to test the accursed things as one does the mesh.

[Inquartata]

And then there are the more banausic concerns. Have you looked at the prices for these things? I'm looking at a Blue Gauntlet catalog: $465 for the Uhlmann lexan mask....

[N00bArmorer]

I've noticed in, southern california atleast, that people have not bought visor masks. The only people who have them are international level fencers. Why? Cost. The mask themselves are more expensive. On top of that, the idea of having to replace the visor is an added and built in cost. I have no preference in manufacturers, but I think the visor is a stupid idea, atleast for saber. If all the test say the visor mask are safe and people check that the lexan is good before every use, I don't see why they shouldn't be used for epee and foil. But why in the world are they even allowed for saber? So we can see the eyes of the fencer on tv. Glare from lights almost always obscures images of eyes behind clear plastic. But here's the bigger problem...Dead zone. Lexan does not conduct which makes the lexan sheild a nice parrying area. People could actively seek to parry attacks with their face. Sounds like an absurd idea until you examine the new timing for saber. A very real possibility exists for a person to try to parry a point in line attack with his/her mask and counterattack and get lock out timing to benefit him/her. Stupid move, maybe, but I've seen people with fast enough reflexs to pull something like that. Isn't that defeating the idea for saber's target area?

[oso97]

Originally Posted by N00bArmorer

People could actively seek to parry attacks with their face. Sounds like an absurd idea until you examine the new timing for saber. A very real possibility exists for a person to try to parry a point in line attack with his/her mask and counterattack and get lock out timing to benefit him/her. Stupid move, maybe, but I've seen people with fast enough reflexs to pull something like that. Isn't that defeating the idea for saber's target area?

Except that most point-in-lines are aimed somewhere around the opponent's clavicle...

[Inquartata]

It's removing target de facto but de jure. No rule permits making a big area of your mask immune to scoring by your opponent. I don't think that's right. OTOH I don't think it's going to be a huge problem; head cuts tend to hit the crown or cheeks of the mask, not the eye area, and PILs usually hit torso. We aren't epeeists, after all. Well, not most of us; and those who are need to quit the poking and get with the program!

As an aside, there was an injury in the Div II WS today. A blade----an intact one, not a broken one---somehow went through a fencer's glove, pierced the palm of her hand and ran up under the skin of her arm to the elbow. This along with the Touya injury in the Olympics makes me wonder how long before the FIE mandates 1600N gloves at $60 each...

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

It's removing target de facto but de jure. No rule permits making a big area of your mask immune to scoring by your opponent. I don't think that's right. OTOH I don't think it's going to be a huge problem; head cuts tend to hit the crown or cheeks of the mask, not the eye area, and PILs usually hit torso. We aren't epeeists, after all. Well, not most of us; and those who are need to quit the poking and get with the program!

As an aside, there was an injury in the Div II WS today. A blade----an intact one, not a broken one---somehow went through a fencer's glove, pierced the palm of her hand and ran up under the skin of her arm to the elbow. This along with the Touya injury in the Olympics makes me wonder how long before the FIE mandates 1600N gloves at $60 each...

What a ridiculous notion. Top of the line gloves, without ratings, currently run almost $50. A 1600N glove would run at least $90...

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

It's removing target de facto but de jure. No rule permits making a big area of your mask immune to scoring by your opponent. I don't think that's right. OTOH I don't think it's going to be a huge problem; head cuts tend to hit the crown or cheeks of the mask, not the eye area, and PILs usually hit torso. We aren't epeeists, after all. Well, not most of us; and those who are need to quit the poking and get with the program!

As an aside, there was an injury in the Div II WS today. A blade----an intact one, not a broken one---somehow went through a fencer's glove, pierced the palm of her hand and ran up under the skin of her arm to the elbow. This along with the Touya injury in the Olympics makes me wonder how long before the FIE mandates 1600N gloves at $60 each...

Well, I've had a non-broken foil puncture my glove and my hand ... lucky for me, it missed all the important bits inside. And perhaps also lucky that it wasn't at an angle that could allow it to go all the way to the elbow ... the hand itself hurt more than enough ...

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

It's removing target de facto but de jure. No rule permits making a big area of your mask immune to scoring by your opponent. I don't think that's right. OTOH I don't think it's going to be a huge problem; head cuts tend to hit the crown or cheeks of the mask, not the eye area, and PILs usually hit torso. We aren't epeeists, after all. Well, not most of us; and those who are need to quit the poking and get with the program!

Inq,

I thought this comment was rather strange coming from your mouth, and when I did a quick search, I realized why.

In this previous thread, you talk about how the lexan mask target removal has changed the essential nature of the game.

Why the softer position in this thread? More experience with them? Just love to argue that much? Or something else?

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by achilleus

Why the softer position in this thread? More experience with them? Just love to argue that much? Or something else?

I've seen just a couple thus far, and haven't fenced against one, but I watched Saworski in one at Duel in the Desert and there didn't seem to be any touches lost to the Lexan panel. And with the new timing, there are a lot of hits to regular masks that don't register, either---so at least until the FIE forces everyone to wear the things the incidence of touches lost because of the Lexan is likely to be lost in the general wonkiness of the box anomalies...

Once the things become prevalent, the essential nature of sabre will have been changed, IMO. It's just been postponed.

( But I DO like arguing. Shhh, don't tell anyone. )

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

I've seen just a couple thus far, and haven't fenced against one, but I watched Saworski in one at Duel in the Desert and there didn't seem to be any touches lost to the Lexan panel. And with the new timing, there are a lot of hits to regular masks that don't register, either---so at least until the FIE forces everyone to wear the things the incidence of touches lost because of the Lexan is likely to be lost in the general wonkiness of the box anomalies...

Once the things become prevalent, the essential nature of sabre will have been changed, IMO. It's just been postponed.

You know, sabre is losing target slowly. First the offhand and palm or the weapon hand, then the weapon hand. Now it's part of the face.

Within a decade you just might fencing wearing a foil lame...

Originally Posted by Inquartata

( But I DO like arguing. Shhh, don't tell anyone. )

It's our secret.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by achilleus

Within a decade you just might fencing wearing a foil lame...

Oh great....just what I need....some uncontrolled newbie taking a wild swing at my nads!!!

[Inquartata]

You still have nads?

Oh, sorry, I thought this was the insult thread...

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

You still have nads?

Oh, sorry, I thought this was the insult thread...

Ohhhh....just you wait until I come out there for the Phoenix Cup...I'm making sure you get all my defective gear!!

As for the condition of my nads...ask my wife after this weekend! (Sandy in a hot tub....mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm)

[denn'bok]

The point that was made, that sticks out in my mind, was the comment about the number of injuries sustained with mesh masks versus those of the lexan masks...

If I undersand correctly, lexan masks are pretty rare. Which means the vast majority of people are using wire masks -- thus, the vast majority of the injuries, (assuming the same rate for both types of masks), would occur with the traditional masks.

I'm just saying that the statistics may or may not be significant, depending on just what proportion of the masks used worldwide are lexan.

[Point_Left]

I don't like the idae of the mask for personal reasons. My first issue is that with many current masks I have issues with my glasses fogging up. With less ventilation I think this problem would increase. Two: you are losing periferal (sp?) vision where the thick bars are holding the plastic in place. Metal isn't transparent. Three: I don't think people seeing my face during a bout would be encouraging. I tend to bare my teeth, and look quite nasty, I'm sure. Four: How often do you need to replace that plastic? What if, during a tourny it scrathches, and another hit is made anywhere on the mask? It might catastrophically fail over a large area that I really want protected. I don't find it encouraging. The polymer structure can just shatter. You can't check the mask for scratches after every head touch (yes, you could apply similar arguments to mesh. I know it may fail, but It won't fail over a large area!) Five: My wallet already cringes when I mention the word "fencing." Good thing it hasn't heard about these...things.

Rant finished