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fencerX · 03-04-2005, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R. Exnicios

The 2004 Crescent City Open is using the "must pre-pay to pre-register" method this year; So far so good.

Though it might work even better if you let people preregister for the 2005 event this year instead of the 2004 ...

Dave · 03-04-2005, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SäbelFechter

Pay at time of registration is the usual procedure up here in Canada. In fact, for many tournaments you have to pay double the entry fee if your registration & payment are not in before the deadline (which ranges from a couple of days to up to a week or more before the event).

It works the same in the UK.

Victor · 03-04-2005, 09:18 AM

There seems to be plenty of evidence here of pre-reg pre-pay already being used successfully. Thanks.

I s'pose those who whine about how difficult it is to plan a few weeks ahead are just going to have to deal with it. There are bigger issues than the comfort of the self-centered.

i'mnottelling · 03-04-2005, 10:59 AM

[quote=oso97]Then I guess you've never had to run an event and had 50% of the pre-registered field not show up when you hired referees to handle the pre-registered field. Like happened at Southwest Sectionals last year. We barely cleared even on that event, because of that.

I wasn't aware that the purpose of a QUALIFIER was to make money for the section.

i'mnt

Victor · 03-04-2005, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by i'mnottelling

"Then I guess you've never had to run an event and had 50% of the pre-registered field not show up when you hired referees to handle the pre-registered field. ... We barely cleared even on that event, because of that."

I wasn't aware that the purpose of a QUALIFIER was to make money for the section.

An interesting skew. It wasn't implied that anyone was out to profit; you inferred that.
He said they almost LOST money because they invested in too many refs. No one (with any common sense) wants to come out behind on the balance sheet.

R. Exnicios · 03-04-2005, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

I'm not especially fond of pre-payment. I realize the benefit it gives tournament organziers, but there are substantial drawbacks. I think I'm going to cancel on the CCO because I can't commit to pre-paying for something that far away, that far in the future, and with the unfortunate timing. (Collegiate Nationals are that weekend, so all the people I'd like to go to NO with are going to be in East Lansing.)
....

The CCO pre-registration is open until March 25th. That's only 1 week prior to the event. We make special arangements for groups all the time. Bottom line is that we do what we can to solve the problem.

As for the Timing and the conflict with collegiate club championships; we kind of got stuck on the weekend and had to go with it. We will solve this next year.

Hope to see you in New Orleans

Cheers

flying foil · 03-04-2005, 12:46 PM

[quote=KD5MDK] I think I'm going to cancel on the CCO because I can't commit to pre-paying for something that far away QUOTE]

Hello there! If you want to come to the CCO - PLEASE DO! Our cutoff for the discounted fees is only one week prior to the event. If you have any special issues, need purchase orders, or whatever (other than a hotel!), you just need to contact the organizers. We seem to have forgotten to take our "putz pills" and try to keep in mind the goal is to have a tournament that people ENJOY, not that stresses them out b/c of excess adminis-trivia. But, we do need to plan as best as possible! Contact us through askfred or from their website- www.louisianafencing.org

KD5MDK · 03-04-2005, 01:01 PM

Thank you. I'll see what I can do, but I've already fenced...
4 tournaments since January, have 2 in March, and 2 for sure in April (Yorick and Divisionals). Toss in my thesis, other studies and so on, and there's only so much fencing I can do. However, I'll keep my options open because of your plea.

fluidfencer · 03-04-2005, 04:29 PM

This is an important point. We don't require prepayment but do generally require pre-registration. But my point was that in this electronic age, the prepay (or preregistration) deadline can be very close to the event. The CCO is a good example. Every fencer should be able to plan one week before the event.

Since we don't require prepayment (we just haven't seen the need... yet), you can register the day before the tournament (in most cases). How easy is that?! Since most people preregister well before then, the day-before policy doesn't hurt our planning at all.

As I said in an earlier post, however, we couldn't do this with a bigger (50-100 per event) tournament since so many resources are required to pull it off, and big commitments (like venue) must be made well in advance.

[quote=flying foil]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

I think I'm going to cancel on the CCO because I can't commit to pre-paying for something that far away QUOTE]

Hello there! If you want to come to the CCO - PLEASE DO! Our cutoff for the discounted fees is only one week prior to the event. If you have any special issues, need purchase orders, or whatever (other than a hotel!), you just need to contact the organizers. We seem to have forgotten to take our "putz pills" and try to keep in mind the goal is to have a tournament that people ENJOY, not that stresses them out b/c of excess adminis-trivia. But, we do need to plan as best as possible! Contact us through askfred or from their website- www.louisianafencing.org

Victor · 03-04-2005, 06:25 PM

I'm feeling a bit fiesty today, for no other reason than it's Friday and I don't want to be at work. I apologize, KD, for seeming to pick on you, but it's nothing personal. You just happened to be the guy to open these points...

Quote:

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

I think I'm going to cancel on the CCO because I can't commit to pre-paying for something that far away, that far in the future, and with the unfortunate timing. ...

Then again, the SSCC fee multipliers are discouraging too. I considered recruiting several people for the Space City Open at the last minute, an event that could have used more fencers (Men's and Women's Sabre were both E1s) but didn't think anyone wanted to pay $60 to go. Same multiplier kept me from fencing Epee at the Rose Condon, after I discovered two weeks before that I like fencing epee a bit.

So I don't really know. The SSCC certainly doesn't have the problem of too few fencers showing up, but it would be nice if some third way was found. However, I don't see it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

I'll see what I can do, but I've already fenced...
4 tournaments since January, have 2 in March, and 2 for sure in April (Yorick and Divisionals). Toss in my thesis, other studies and so on, and there's only so much fencing I can do. However, I'll keep my options open because of your plea.

This is the perspective of a casual fencer. Which is to say someone who fences when he has an opportunity in his busy schedule or when he gets the whim to fence ... Instead of setting his sights on an event and working the rest of his schedule around to reach it.

That's fine. Respect to you and yours. Yo.

But at major circuit events -- "major" for the region, anyway -- I want to face off against hardcore competitors, the people who are there to win and improve their skills. To that end, I don't really care about the financial discomfort of casual fencers who sorta maybe decide they like epee two weeks earlier and think it would be lots of fun to poke around IF they can find a spare moment or two.

Those laid-back folk need to be looking for local events that fit their otherwise busy calendars. The serious fencers won't be dissuaded by pre-reg payment.

D'Artag-NOT · 03-04-2005, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victor

There seems to be plenty of evidence here of pre-reg pre-pay already being used successfully. Thanks.

I s'pose those who whine about how difficult it is to plan a few weeks ahead are just going to have to deal with it. There are bigger issues than the comfort of the self-centered.

I don't really care about the financial discomfort of casual fencers who sorta maybe decide they like epee two weeks earlier and think it would be lots of fun to poke around IF they can find a spare moment or two.

Those laid-back folk need to be looking for local events that fit their otherwise busy calendars. The serious fencers won't be dissuaded by pre-reg payment.

Just thought I'd bring a fresh perspective to this party. I'm what Victor would call a "casual" fencer rather than a hard-core competitor (although it was four and a half years ago now that I sorta maybe decided I liked foil). I had every intention of competing in this weekend's divisional quals here in the Orange Coast Division. My coach thought it would be a good tournament for me to attend.

I cleared my schedule. I went to practice and stayed late. I bouted like crazy to get ready for this competition.

However, none of this meant a damn thing to the flu virus that struck me on Monday and has kept me home from work all week and which is keeping me out from this much-anticipated, much-desired, well-planned-for event.

Sometimes the crap just happens, y'know? Then what?

oso97 · 03-04-2005, 06:51 PM

Ouch, that royally sucks. But I can tell you that if you were talking about participating in the Southwest Sectionals this year and that had happened and you'd pre-paid, then you'd definitely get your entry fee and your registration fee back, more than likey enclosed in a get-well-soon card.

Inquartata · 03-04-2005, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victor

I s'pose those who whine about how difficult it is to plan a few weeks ahead are just going to have to deal with it. There are bigger issues than the comfort of the self-centered.

Like what, the comfort of a few administrators and referees? Yes, that's obviously the most important group in fencing. Mere fencers? Pfft! A distant consideration....

This is the USFA-FIE phenomenon writ small: the considerations of bureaucrats and organizing committees come to outweigh those of the people they are supposed to serve...

Victor · 03-04-2005, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Originally Posted by Victor: "I s'pose those who whine about how difficult it is to plan a few weeks ahead are just going to have to deal with it. There are bigger issues than the comfort of the self-centered."

Like what, the comfort of a few administrators and referees? Yes, that's obviously the most important group in fencing. Mere fencers? Pfft! A distant consideration....

This is the USFA-FIE phenomenon writ small: the considerations of bureaucrats and organizing committees come to outweigh those of the people they are supposed to serve...

No. The bigger issue is NOT refs and admins. The bigger issue is fencers who are serious about the competition, those who show up when they say they'll show up.

nahouw · 03-04-2005, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Like what, the comfort of a few administrators and referees? Yes, that's obviously the most important group in fencing. Mere fencers? Pfft! A distant consideration....

This is the USFA-FIE phenomenon writ small: the considerations of bureaucrats and organizing committees come to outweigh those of the people they are supposed to serve...

Well, as Jeff said, I might jump into this thread.... and after this segment of the thread, I most certainly will.

Pre-registration is required, not because of the administrators, but rather, so that the administrators can plan for what they need to have in order to be enabled to run an efficient tournament -- and, mind you, as I put on my adminstrator hat, that is a consideration, because I AM giving up my personal time to do this. HOWEVER, the more over riding considerations is that of the fencers -- as I now put on my fencer hat, it is very disconcerting to go to a competition in which there is a lack of referees and strips in order to run an efficient competition -- many more fencers would be displeased to go to an event in which every event had to be double-flighted due to lack of refereees and strips.

One of the reasons why in NJ we have pre-registration for almost all of the qualifier events and the steep at-the-door penalty is due to the occurrence several years ago at the JO qualifiers when 20 additional MS fencers just showed up at the door (18 others had followed procedures and had pre-registered). Do you know how hard it is to find 3 additional sabre referees 1/2 hour before an event?? We found none. We had to double-flight the event.

Here are the numbers so far on our entry spreadsheet this year: 215 for Div II/III; 195 for U-19; at least a dozen on each are late but received. Despite the steep penalty, there will be at least a dozen more who will pay it on the day. Maybe there will be three that don't show up.

We use Fencing Time for our competitions. If we didn't use computer software and have the entries pre-entered, that would add hours for the original seeding and round seeding by hand. Pre-registration facilitates the smooth running of competitions.

KD5MDK · 03-04-2005, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victor

I'm feeling a bit fiesty today, for no other reason than it's Friday and I don't want to be at work. I apologize, KD, for seeming to pick on you, but it's nothing personal. You just happened to be the guy to open these points...

This is the perspective of a casual fencer. Which is to say someone who fences when he has an opportunity in his busy schedule or when he gets the whim to fence ... Instead of setting his sights on an event and working the rest of his schedule around to reach it.

That's fine. Respect to you and yours. Yo.

But at major circuit events -- "major" for the region, anyway -- I want to face off against hardcore competitors, the people who are there to win and improve their skills. To that end, I don't really care about the financial discomfort of casual fencers who sorta maybe decide they like epee two weeks earlier and think it would be lots of fun to poke around IF they can find a spare moment or two.

Those laid-back folk need to be looking for local events that fit their otherwise busy calendars. The serious fencers won't be dissuaded by pre-reg payment.

Hardcore fencers get sectionals, NACs, and everything at that level as far as I'm concerned. I'm considering Div II or III, but my life right now has a giant event horizon. I graduate in May, need to get a job, and there's not a thing in the world that I'll put ahead of that, so I'm completely unable to commit to things before I know what the rest of my life will look like. Anyway, that's where I'm coming from.

So: For major tournaments, I have no problem with prepayment. I really like preregistering in any event, as it tells me who else will be there, how big it will likely be, etc. To use the CCO as an example, since we've talked about it and all:
Mixed Sabre has 6 preregs showing on Fred, 3 Es and 3Us. That's not an incredibly attractive looking tournament at the moment. I'm sure as March passes and more people pay it will become much better looking, but for the moment I'm not sold. Then there's the matter of major. In my traveling range, I consider the major tournaments to be the SSCC events, Divisionals and Sectionals. CCO isn't a SSCC event, so it's not on my list of must haves. I go to the local tournaents, I don't think there's more than one I've missed unless there was a conflict of tournaments so far.

So, to summarize: If I consider the tournament major, I'm happy to prepay. If I consider the event minor, I'll prepay if it's local and I know I'm going. But if it's neither, the requirement to prepay will probably keep me away. CCO happens to fall right about on the line right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Like what, the comfort of a few administrators and referees? Yes, that's obviously the most important group in fencing. Mere fencers? Pfft! A distant consideration....

I don't consider this the issue at all. As someone who has helped run tournaments (in the minor sense) I endorse all reasonable methods for making their job easier.

oso97 · 03-04-2005, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victor

No. The bigger issue is NOT refs and admins. The bigger issue is fencers who are serious about the competition, those who show up when they say they'll show up.

Exactly.

When I was a competitor, I wanted to attend competitions that had other good competitors, good referees, that start on time and finish in a reasonable amount of time.

As a coach, I want to take my fencers to competitions that are well organized, with good referees, that start on time, and finish in a reasonable amount of time.

As a referee, I want to work competitions where I'll be well supported, not hanging out in the wind, and I've not been totally burned out because there are enough of my colleagues present (its exausting enough to referee at GOOD events).

As a private tournament organizer, I want to put on good events that attract top level fencers, finish in the time I have alloted, and the people attending feel good about the event. And frankly, I'm more concerned about attracting competitors who will attend my events over and over again, because they felt I put on a good event, than I am about people who can't make up their mind more than a couple of weeks in advance weather or not they're going to attend.

As a Sectional officer charged with putting on qualifying events, I want to make sure that every bout fenced is refereed by a qualified referee, the events start on time and end on time, and the competitors have the best chance to qualify that they can.

Pre-payment of registrations with reasonable refunds as neccessary help acheive these goals.

Oh, and it may shock certain people to hear me say this, but the CCO has a history of being good event - one of the top in this region. The organizers have good protocols, typcially hire referees in quantity and quality neccessary to run the event, and attract good fencers. If you're looking for a good event to attend in this region that weekend and have the time and resources to attend, you should. Hopefully they'll rejoin the SSCC in the future.

Inquartata · 03-06-2005, 12:40 PM

As I said, it's a trade-off. If whatever you do your event is going to be large, both in terms of sheer numbers and quality of competitors, then to require pre-payment is perhaps not a big thing ( except to those fencers who will be discommoded or dissuaded altogether from going, but you can afford to do without them ). If not, then requiring pre-payment may just turn your tournament from small to pathetic. It's all in the numbers. My Division simply could not get away with it, and an event trying to get itself established is taking a big risk going this route as well. They need all the entrants they can get.

But I have to say too that the logic of "what helps the LOC helps the fencers" sounds a bit like rationalization to me. One can make the same sort of claim---"it's for your own good"---just about anywhere. The bazillion-dollar salary and golden parachute for our CEO? Oh, that's for the ultimate benefit of the customer and shareholder, really...