decision point/straight attacks

[wflaschka]

Originally Posted by drippingwet

If you look at the clip in the first of the march articles, you can see Cassara looking like he made a parry in response to an apparent false attack from his opponent, rather than ignoring it.

It's reality versus the ideal. Ideally, you can ignore the opponent when they're not in distance. But in reality, when you're closing distance with an elite opponent, you don't know precisly what they can do, so you twitch. Let's say Cassara had a chance to do it all over again, he'd be more confident and wouldn't even swing at the stop-hits. In Mocek's march against Guyart, Mocek stopped flinching by the end.

There's also a chance Cassara wanted to do his parries, because he wanted to attenuate the action -- perhaps he didn't know where he could finish at that point, because Coutant wasn't sufficiently opened up.

Recognizing the real from the fake, or the dangerous from the non-dangerous -- it's experiential and takes time.

[drippingwet]

Thanks dudes. I also saw Sanzo doing some of these parries in thin air once when he was driving Nassiboulline before him in the semi of the 2004 CIP. Some of the Russian's body feints seemed to trigger these parries in thin air. So maybe the Russian's feints looked threatening enough to not ignore, but unlikely enough to not commit. Anyway, Sanzo lunged on one of them and received a parry riposte. Maybe that body feint looked even more threatening.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by fencerontheline

Why do you people make fencing seem smarter than it is? To attack, you find a way get into distance and you hit the other guy. One's method is one's individual perogative.

Regardless of what's been written, regardless of how the greatest fencers in history have fenced, that's attacking in a nutshell.

Thank you sweet Jesus, Lord of Mercy!

Great post!

There are no secret codes, or magic potions at work here.

Get mad skills, implement, and repeat!

[downunder]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Thank you sweet Jesus, Lord of Mercy!

Great post!

There are no secret codes, or magic potions at work here.

Get mad skills, implement, and repeat!

Originally Posted by wflaschka

About overintellectualizing... Tactics like marches and decision point can be intellectualized -- off strip. It's just another means of modeling a bout, so that these models can be applied very quickly to emerging tactical situations. On strip, the fencer oughtn't engage intellectually during an action, but should rely on feeling and experience (these models) to get the job done.

read the thread

[Mr Epee]

I had already read the thread, and I still think that Fencerontheline captures a great thought. Your gratuitious use of smilies notwithstanding.

Next?

[downunder]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

I had already read the thread, and I still think that Fencerontheline captures a great thought.

Next?

yeah for sure, i thought thought wflaschka covered it fairly well

[fencerontheline]

Originally Posted by wflaschka

Decision point is that (very short) period in the march where the attacker can be hit by the defender. Not "can be hit" as in the defender owns RoW, but rather "can be hit" as in being physically able to reach the attacker. Before decision point, the attacker can ignore everything the opponent does, false or real, because the attacker can't be reached. Before decision point, everything the opponent does is "false," even if the opponent might be very earnest. After the decision point, nothing the defender does is meaningful because the attacker will hit with RoW.

When the two fencers close to hitting distance, that precise moment is the decision point. The defender can actually hit the marching attacker, and own RoW, so that moment is when the attacker must be most alert. Marching attackers who understand this will make safer marches, and defenders who understand this will defeat more marches.

In the recent St Petersburg article, page 2, Mocek vs Guyart, there is a video clip of Mocek marching down Guyart. Mocek completely ignores everything Guyart does, and cuts it very close -- by the end, he was showing open target without even trying to parry. He knew he was safe by 3-5 inches, and he knew that showing open target would encourage Guyart to keep making useless stop-hits. Mocek was using decision point (or however he's rationalized his distance), and relying on experience with Guyart and/or all fencers to know when DP would happen. For example, Mocek is pretty confident that Guyart won't be able to lunge suddenly.

About overintellectualizing... Tactics like marches and decision point can be intellectualized -- off strip. It's just another means of modeling a bout, so that these models can be applied very quickly to emerging tactical situations. On strip, the fencer oughtn't engage intellectually during an action, but should rely on feeling and experience (these models) to get the job done.

If I'm going to understand this thread, I'm going to need 9-10 PHDs in calculus, marching, neo-bi-partistan politics and nuclear physics...

If I'm going to fence, I need an understanding of distance and timing, and basic echnique... If I were not taking two weeks off from fencing, I'd go fencing instead of reading this thread. I'm pretty sure I'd benefit a lot more from the 10 minutes of dummywork I'd put than I would from reading this.

I'm obviously too dumb to understand or apply this thread. I think that it's, in all probability, a good thing. I betcha I'm not alone.

[wflaschka]

Originally Posted by fencerontheline

If I'm going to fence, I need an understanding of distance and timing, and basic echnique... If I were not taking two weeks off from fencing, I'd go fencing instead of reading this thread. I'm pretty sure I'd benefit a lot more from the 10 minutes of dummywork I'd put than I would from reading this.

That's generally the point of what people have been saying. And decision point is not so complicated that you can't grasp the core concepts on the first hearing. After that, it's work, work work.

All the same, I wouldn't go completely anti-intellectual. There's a reason doctors go to school before interning at hospitals for experience. In the same vein, there's a reason for coach's college, the blackstar clinic, the hungarian master's school, &etc. Sure, you can get some skillz by doing a fencing action over and over again without ever wondering why, but some people -- such as Imre Vass, Lazslo Szabo, Aladar Kogler (to name a few extremists -- bookwriters) need to think about stuff, because they know fencing as an intellectual pursuit, rather than just fancy twitching.

Inevitably, every fencer meets an opponent with more skills or better technique; at that point the fencer's best bet is to be able to think. (Not that this thread will necessarily help with that.)

[fencerontheline]

Originally Posted by wflaschka

Inevitably, every fencer meets an opponent with more skills or better technique; at that point the fencer's best bet is to be able to think. (Not that this thread will necessarily help with that.)

I definitely agree. When fencing someone better, I think much more, and am more capable as a result. Trickery and deception is important.

I still think going out and doing distance drills, conditioning, dummywork, meditation for self control, or maybe even... fencing would benefit the majority of the people on this board much more than reading this stuff.

[wflaschka]

Originally Posted by fencerontheline

I still think going out and doing distance drills, conditioning, dummywork, or even meditation for self control would benefit the majority of the people on this board much more than reading this stuff.

I agree. Anybody who stays home from practice, to post on the bboard, is pretty sad indeed! I hope this thread isn't so gripping that actual fencing is being missed.

(EDIT: That said... there is stuff I'm supposed to be doing...)

[fencerontheline]

Originally Posted by wflaschka

I agree. Anybody who stays home from practice, to post on the bboard, is pretty sad indeed! I hope this thread isn't so gripping that actual fencing is being missed.

To be honest, the only reason I come here is to putz around in the water cooler and keep up on the details of upcoming things...

I still think it'd benefit Drippingwet's fencing and pretty much everyone else's on this board (with a few exceptions) to go running or play basketball or soccer or do something active ( that's all presupposing that fencing isn't an option) instead of reading this board.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by wflaschka

I agree. Anybody who stays home from practice, to post on the bboard, is pretty sad indeed! I hope this thread isn't so gripping that actual fencing is being missed.

I don't think anyone's doing that.

I also think it's sad, though, that some people are taking time out of their day to go onto a fencing forum to tell the people on the fencing forum that they go on the fencing forum too much and they should go out and fence. I mean, at least drippingwet is LEARNING something.

[Mr Epee]

Lets replace references to thinking with the word feeling.

I feel that we will have a more appropriate description.

[fencerontheline]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

I don't think anyone's doing that.

I also think it's sad, though, that some people are taking time out of their day to go onto a fencing forum to tell the people on the fencing forum that they go on the fencing forum too much and they should go out and fence. I mean, at least drippingwet is LEARNING something.

At about 2:30 PM today, I'm going to leave home and go to my fencing club, and I'm not going to leave till about 9:30. I work there. I teach kids and adult begginners. I'm going to do footwork on my own, but I'm not going to fence, as this is my 'time off' (two weeks off, where I'm on 'vacation' from training hard and fencing).


Taking a little time out of my day to complain about the overintellectualizing of fencing is definitely my sweat-earned right. As someone who teaches, I look to this board for some insight, and I find it very rarely, from very few people. Trying to learn fencing from fencing.net is not a good idea. Most of fencing is feeling, as in something you develop from training and hard work. More physical conditioning is probably a better option than learning from here.

[RebelFencer]

The whole point is that instead of cluttering the thread with complaining you could just not read it and choose to find a more worthwhile topic for yourself.

About theory being useless, I heavily disagree. Sure, when I'm on the strip I don't think according to so and so, this and this should be a viable means to exploit such and such (Please stop me if I'm using overly flowery language ). But regardless, having even a basic understanding of these tremendously hard to grasp concepts gives you an edge on the strip because you have a better idea of what will happen in certain situations. Decision point alone has helped me, simply because I can think to myself, "I'm in no real danger right now," and not get scared off by fakes or loud noises. The reason to understand theory is that it just makes you a more well rounded fencer, the physical aspect is very important...but the intellectual aspect is what pushes you to a higher level (not that I've reached that level yet). It's almost like watching your opponent fence the bout before you fence him. You don't know that he's going to use what he used, you don't know if he'll fence you the same. But you do have an idea of what he's capable of in situations and that gives you an edge you wouldn't have otherwise.

Sorry for the long post.

[Allen Evans]

Like any other resource, when you learn how to use Fencing.net, it is a valuable tool. I can parse a thread pretty quickly, decide if it's worth paying attention to, and move on with my life (including my fencing life) if it isn't.

When Fencing.net is operating at it's best, there isn't a substitute. Who else is putting out ANY information in English that speaks to the fencing community the way Fencing.net does? When was the last time American Fencing published anything as worthwhile as Walter Flashka's essays about the march? Or brought us up to date about the reaction to the new timings and the protests in Korea?

It may not be perfect, ladies and gentlemen, but it's OURS.

[SmokeyTheCat263]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

When was the last time American Fencing published anything as worthwhile as Walter Flashka's essays about the march?

It's not a march.
It's not a marching attack.
It's just an attack.
Get over it. There's nothing special about it. It's called run down your opponent and hit him.

[SmokeyTheCat263]

Originally Posted by fencerontheline

Trying to learn fencing from fencing.net is not a good idea. Most of fencing is feeling, as in something you develop from training and hard work. More physical conditioning is probably a better option than learning from here.

Right on...............

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by SmokeyTheCat263

It's not a march.
It's not a marching attack.
It's just an attack.
Get over it. There's nothing special about it. It's called run down your opponent and hit him.

Yea!!!!

Rep Points for Smokey!!!

In the the words of the philosopher Kid Rock (or was it Fred Durst)

"We do what we say. You say what we do".

[Allen Evans]

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