screwless epee tips yet again

[jeffp]

I've been pawing through the archives, looking for recent info on screwless epee tips. All the old links to the negrini tip data are now stale, sadly.

So I'll ask again, just in case there has been some sort of change in the status quo that I missed.

To the best of my ability to tell, there are only 2 types of screwless epee tips (at least reliably) available these days (early 2005):

* Estoc, available via Sword Masters
* Schermasport, available via AFS

The Estoc tips are relatively cheap, but I've hit 2 problems with them already (and I've only got one in use so far). First, the contact spring moves around at the drop of a hat. I may have to set it and then thread lock it down, which seems extreme. Secondly, the white plastic sleeve that insulates the actual tip and contact spring from the barrel and what-not split and about a 3rd of it vanished. The thing still works, and the action is still smooth, but it wouldn't pass muster at a tournament.

I have yet to try the Scherma-sport tips, but they are very expensive. From what I have read, though, they last a long time once they are installed.

I seem to have the worst luck with both German and French tips... screws go missing mere milliseconds after I install them. (OK, it really takes a bout or two, but it happens far too often.) I desperately need an alternative.

I'm willing to buy spares and/or spare parts to keep them working, and I do all my own armory work, so I am not bothered by any of that. What I want is a reliable tip that won't lose screws after each and every 20 minutes of use.

I may have to pay the huge price for the schermasport variety if nothing else is available, but before I go that route, I'll ask... are there any other screwless tips available in the US that I should be looking at? I'll buy a couple of each and try them out until I find what I like, if I have any other choices.

Thanks for any help you may have.

--jeffp

[DangerMouse]

I just recently bought some of the schermasport tips. I'll post a review once I wire one up and use it for a couple weeks.

[jeffp]

Thanks. I may take some photos of the Estoc I am using now to show the damage to the plastic sleeve, and post them online for others to see. And I may also review the Schermasport tips too, if it comes about that I actually buy any.

--jeffp

[great bowyer]

i have actually not had the problem with the german tips loosing screws, some of my weapons i have hade for several months being used about 2 hours/week without the screws coming out. from my experience, i think the problem is that you may be over-tightening them or the treading in the tip is stripped. the later problem can usualy be avoided by not over tightening.

[Gav]

As for your grub screws popping out ... Ensure that you use the right screws with the right tip. If you don't, you will have exactly the problem you describe.

[Gav]

oh, this is also an armoury question and you will get better answers there.

[Mergs]

Actually, PBT also makes/markets a screwless tip.

How did we get on about grub screws falling out in a thread on screwless tips?

[CvilleFencer]

The best cure for tips that shed screws is to use some LP epee screws. They are somewhat peircing/self-threading in that they will dig in and stick into the tip much better than German or French screws. The catch is that nothing else will ever fit in that tip except LP screws, so it is a parts commitment, but their screws are no more expensive than anyone elses.

The problems you have had with the Estoc tips match my own experiance and I would not recommend them to anyone. You might try the Leon Paul GT epee tips. They will shed screws less and they are super smooth, but require somewhat more frequent care and cleaning than the German in my experiance.

You can order your epee tips straight from Negrinni and probably save yourself a few bucks over AMF. Check them out at: http://www.negrini.com/eng.php?lang=...ice_list=extra YOu will save about $10 bucks per complete point and shipping should not be more than about 15-20 dollars so if you are getting more than a couple of points and spares it is well worth it. Also you might want to try some of the groovey pistol grips that Schermasport makes. They are pretty sweet...

[shlepzig]

I had a number of contact spring woes with the screwless tips, until I got them figured out. The Estoc tips are a good deal, tough as nails, and very forgiving.

Initially, I would put in the contact spring, and give it a dab of superglue, then a few touches later, it would come out of adjustment. It turned out I had a contact spring that was too long.

I had to screw the spring onto the threaded shaft so tightly to get within spec that after a couple of jabs one of the lower coils would come loose and the spring would unwind a bit taking the tip out of conformance.

Further confusion occured because I would adjust the spring and then finger tighten the tip, then check, then if it was good I would give it a bit of a twist to lock down the tip. That extra twist could potentially take the weapon out of conformance. Aargh! I would scream (note: not as loudly as I would scream when I lost the 5th grub screw on the strip of a tournament).

Now I put in any old contact spring I have (or that a vendor has available at a tournament), give it a dab of glue, then adjust it by trimming a half to a quarter turn off of the spring until I am in conformance (careful work with a small pair of dykes). With this technique I can set these things bash away at them for ages. I can set a tip, put in in my box, wait until one fails, and screw that in and be good to go in 30 seconds.

Since, I have only had two instances of failure of the tip, both were when I demolished a contact spring. and had to replace it. The tips have stayed in adjustement through it all without any tweaking, fencing twice a week for a couple of hours, and odd tournaments.

I have put these things through tons of abuse, and they keep on ticking. I have not seen a nylon bushing failure yet, but I do believe it can happen. I have witnessed one tip being pulled completely out of the nylon bushing when the tip edge caught on a bell guard. The tip was able to be pushed back through and put back into service.

Screwless Shlep.

[The Armourer]

Originally Posted by Mergs

Actually, PBT also makes/markets a screwless tip.

How did we get on about grub screws falling out in a thread on screwless tips?

I was actually wondering that myself!!!

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by The Armourer

I was actually wondering that myself!!!

In the initial thread the poster was lamenting on the loss of grub screws in French and German tips. This was the reason he started looking at the screwless tips in the first place... On the off chance you guys were not being facetious I thought I would point it out... Feeling very literal today for some odd reason.

[jeffp]

First off, thanks to everyone for their replies so far. I will summarize my response here. I think I've got all the salient points and tried to provide credit where it is due...

* Great Bowyer thought I might be overtightening the screws in my tips. All I can say to this is that I've played with it for a while now, trying tighter or looser, etc. What I think I've noted is that the tips where the screws have discolored slightly seem to hold better than the tips with newer (shiny) screws. I wonder if a slight bit of rust or corrosion from sweaty hands while installing them might not be causing them to hold better? No matter... it's the wrong answer, even if it works. I also know what happens when a tip is stripped to the point that the screw won't bite, as I've seen that on occasion, particularly with older tips where I've had to replace numerous lost screws. I've had the experience of removing a stripped tip, putting in a brand new one along with 2 brand new screws, fencing one bout, and finding only one screw left in the tip when I'm done. Highly annoying.

* Gav says I need to be sure to use the right screws -- French or German, I assume -- for the tip I am working on. I am very careful not to mix parts, and I don't believe I've mixed them up. Anything is possible, but I am as careful as I can be. Carefully marked ziploc bags, etc. The other fencers in my club probably think I'm a bit anal-retentive about these sorts of things.

* Mergs said that PBT makes and markets a screwless epee tip. I checked the tips and wires page at fencepbt.com and found nothing there about screwless epee tips. A search on their website also found nothing. Do you have a reference for these somewhere?

* CvilleFencer suggested LP tips and their associated screws as an alternative to the German. I might try them (I love LP epee blades) but to be honest, I'd like to continue my screwless tip research first, simply because at this point I don't trust anything with screws. I'd think a mechanical engineer looking at the design of an epee (or foil) tip would say 2 things: (1) Why are they using those tiny screws? and (2) Why are they using a contact spring? These things are simply not reliable systems in my mind, so I am looking for something better. In desperation -- if the Schermasport tips are also not acceptable for some reason perhaps -- I'll try the LP tips. I'm certainly not happy with the French or the German designs.

* CvilleFencer also suggested Negrini as a source of Schermasport screwless tips. Thank you! Having a choice of suppliers helps a ton, and may save me some money. As it turns out, I already use a Shermasport anatomical grip. I got them through AFS years ago and love them... much nicer for me than any other grip I've tried. Someday I'll have to get back to a French, but the Schermasport is really nice.

* Shlepzig said his estoc tips are wearing well. I'm glad to hear they work for someone. I'll put my 2nd Estoc into service soon and see how it goes. Perhaps my first had a manufacturing defect in the plastic sleeve/bushing, and I think we agree that without some effort the tip spring will move around. It's possible that the Estoc tips can be made to work well, but my initial experience doesn't make me confident about that. Also the description you give of trimming the contact spring isn't clear to me... are you trimming the end that hits the contacts, or the end that threads onto the thread in the tip? If the latter, fine. If the former, how are you sure you'll get contact once you've removed the flat bottom of the spring? It has to hit both contact pads in the base to do it's job, and I'd think trimming the spring to shorten it would make the bottom of the spring less flat, or (if you have to trim it too far back) entirely non-flat, if you will. In any event, the Estoc tips are still on my "maybe" list given my experiences so far. By the way, I note that Sclepzig is a mechanical engineer according to his profile. Am I right about the weak points of the design here?

Again, thanks to everyone that has replied. If anyone has more information on screwless tips, their sources, or manufacturers, please post it here.

--jeffp

[A Fencer]

Originally Posted by jeffp

I've been pawing through the archives, looking for recent info on screwless epee tips. All the old links to the negrini tip data are now stale, sadly.

So I'll ask again, just in case there has been some sort of change in the status quo that I missed.

To the best of my ability to tell, there are only 2 types of screwless epee tips (at least reliably) available these days (early 2005):

* Estoc, available via Sword Masters
* Schermasport, available via AFS

The Estoc tips are relatively cheap, but I've hit 2 problems with them already (and I've only got one in use so far). First, the contact spring moves around at the drop of a hat. I may have to set it and then thread lock it down, which seems extreme. Secondly, the white plastic sleeve that insulates the actual tip and contact spring from the barrel and what-not split and about a 3rd of it vanished. The thing still works, and the action is still smooth, but it wouldn't pass muster at a tournament.

I have yet to try the Scherma-sport tips, but they are very expensive. From what I have read, though, they last a long time once they are installed.

I seem to have the worst luck with both German and French tips... screws go missing mere milliseconds after I install them. (OK, it really takes a bout or two, but it happens far too often.) I desperately need an alternative.

I'm willing to buy spares and/or spare parts to keep them working, and I do all my own armory work, so I am not bothered by any of that. What I want is a reliable tip that won't lose screws after each and every 20 minutes of use.

I may have to pay the huge price for the schermasport variety if nothing else is available, but before I go that route, I'll ask... are there any other screwless tips available in the US that I should be looking at? I'll buy a couple of each and try them out until I find what I like, if I have any other choices.

Thanks for any help you may have.

--jeffp

I prefer a good screw...

[shlepzig]

Originally Posted by jeffp

* Shlepzig said his estoc tips are wearing well. I'm glad to hear they work for someone. I'll put my 2nd Estoc into service soon and see how it goes. Perhaps my first had a manufacturing defect in the plastic sleeve/bushing, and I think we agree that without some effort the tip spring will move around. It's possible that the Estoc tips can be made to work well, but my initial experience doesn't make me confident about that. Also the description you give of trimming the contact spring isn't clear to me... are you trimming the end that hits the contacts, or the end that threads onto the thread in the tip? If the latter, fine. If the former, how are you sure you'll get contact once you've removed the flat bottom of the spring? It has to hit both contact pads in the base to do it's job, and I'd think trimming the spring to shorten it would make the bottom of the spring less flat, or (if you have to trim it too far back) entirely non-flat, if you will. In any event, the Estoc tips are still on my "maybe" list given my experiences so far. By the way, I note that Sclepzig is a mechanical engineer according to his profile. Am I right about the weak points of the design here?

--jeffp

I am trimming the bottom part of the of the contact spring (the end that contacts the wire posts) after I have affixed it to the threaded tip post. The spring not being flat has not been an issue, and I can not see it really becoming one. The tip test only cares if the tip has been depressed enough to set the light off. Hypothetically you could have the end of the spring sitting on one of the contact pads in the cup and depress .5mm to make a connection to the other. I don't think this is happening. Basically, I agree with you that one portion of the contact spring will touch a contact pad before the other, I just don't think that it will make one bit of difference to the performance of the tip.

I really like them, I would like them more if I didn't have to modify springs to make them work. But on the other hand I would have to do that if I put any old spring into any old tip and it weren't the right one. I feel it is more than a fair trade off to never having to worry about losing a grub screw.

Shlep.

[EricS]

I use the Schermasport variety, and I am very pleased with them.

The construction is very high quality, and a lot of thought obviously went into the design. Installation is a bit different than other tips--you have to file the contacts on the wire down to adjust the shim distances--but once that's over, you never have to do it again.

The wires themselves have lasted a very long time; they're made of some kind of alloy, possibly bronze.

Although they are quite expensive, they are tough as nails.