Go black don't come back

[ReverseLunge]

Fenced foil, went to Epee, cannot go back. Have any foil fencers gone to Epee because they can't stand the new foil timings?

[LordTofuDog-jnr]

What kind of neanderthal gives up a weapon after only a couple of months of different rules, rules we don't know will even be around at the end of the year?

[cowpaste]

As long as ROW and on/off target is still there, I'll fence foil. The new timings can be ultra frustrating sometimes...but I prefer it by far to the even more random épée.

[Boo Boo]

but I prefer it by far to the even more random épée.

What is "random" about epee?

I know a few people who have moved to epee from foil recently.

I even fenced epee myself recently (in a friendly ompetition - my annual epee outing...) and had great fun. However, that is probably because I am a foilist: there isn't the pressure to win ALL of my fights as there tends to be when I fence foil...

Boo

[Zilverzmurfen]

There is nothing randomness about épée!
If you think so it is because you are not familiar with the 'game' in épée.

Comparizon: We épéeists often make jokes about foil - the game where "he/she who shouts the loudest gets the point..."

[O_O #2]

foil is something i use to wrap up my chicken when i barbecue it. epee is a real weapon.

[mrbiggs]

Fenced foil, went to Epee, cannot go back. Have any foil fencers gone to Epee because they can't stand the new foil timings?

I started doing epee partly because I couldn't stand the old timings.

But it turns out that I'm better at fencing with the old timings than with the new timings.

[The Mormegil]

Comparizon: We épéeists often make jokes about foil - the game where "he/she who shouts the loudest gets the point..."

i thought that was the sabre method of fencing

[glowstix]

i thought that was the sabre method of fencing

you beat me to it..

[glowstix]

What is "random" about epee?

he's talking about the high percentage of "lucky hits" that occur in epee; like those in the middle of a phrase where the light just seemed to go off because someone's jacket was snagged unintentionally. i really hate when that happens but the good thing is that they even out in the end somehow.

[Jarentz]

Fencing foil with the OLD timings made me want to try epee. The new timings haven't turned foil into epee, they've turned foil into foil.

[Webster]

The new timings haven't turned foil into epee, they've turned foil into foil.

exactly What I was thinking, save the part about the tip bouncing off of chest plates and so on.

[garyhayenga]

What is "random" about epee?

I know a few people who have moved to epee from foil recently.

I even fenced epee myself recently (in a friendly ompetition - my annual epee outing...) and had great fun. However, that is probably because I am a foilist: there isn't the pressure to win ALL of my fights as there tends to be when I fence foil...

Boo

Calling epee 'random' is inaccurate.

Epee is a percentage game. The idea is to manuever your opponent into a situation/series of actions where you have a *much* higher percent chance to hit them than they have to hit you. So you can't commit to actions where you have a 60% chance to hit them and they have a 40% chance to hit you, because on the actions *they* initiate they'll make sure that they only commit to an action where they have an 80% chance to hit you and you only have a 20% chance to hit them. And you'll lose in the long run.

More often epeeists try to set up actions where they have a 30% chance to score but they're opponent only has a 5% chance to hit them. 60/40 isn't good enough because that means in a quarter of your bouts you get down two touches early and that can be a big problem. But even if you do manage to play a high percentage game, it's inevitable that even though the odds are in your favor in the long run, in the short run it can go against you. So there are far more upsets in epee than there have been in the past in foil and in sabre they're quite rare.

At one NAC I was at the Olympic Gold Medallist, Arndt Schmitt, competed. I was in the second flight, again, and got to watch most of his pool bouts. In his second bout he lost to some no name Canadian 5-1. And he wasn't slacking off either, his opponent just scored a bunch of low percentage hits in a row. So with one loss he ended up seeded 17th. The guy who had a brilliant first round and ended up seeded 1st was very upset to discover he had to beat Arndt Schmitt to even make it into the top 16. He didn't. Schmitt won the tournament.

Some people don't like epee because it's such a tactical, percentage game. And some like it just for that reason.

gary hayenga

[flyingfencer]

I wouldn't switch; regardless of the timings.

I do fence Epee now and then. I enjoy it thoroughly, but I'm not really built for Epee fencing. I'm on the shorter side for Epee around 5'9" tall, and I'm better suited for the kind of movement up and down the strip that's found in Sabre and Foil.

[mrbiggs]

Calling epee 'random' is inaccurate.

Epee is a percentage game. The idea is to manuever your opponent into a situation/series of actions where you have a *much* higher percent chance to hit them than they have to hit you. So you can't commit to actions where you have a 60% chance to hit them and they have a 40% chance to hit you, because on the actions *they* initiate they'll make sure that they only commit to an action where they have an 80% chance to hit you and you only have a 20% chance to hit them. And you'll lose in the long run.

More often epeeists try to set up actions where they have a 30% chance to score but they're opponent only has a 5% chance to hit them. 60/40 isn't good enough because that means in a quarter of your bouts you get down two touches early and that can be a big problem. But even if you do manage to play a high percentage game, it's inevitable that even though the odds are in your favor in the long run, in the short run it can go against you. So there are far more upsets in epee than there have been in the past in foil and in sabre they're quite rare.

At one NAC I was at the Olympic Gold Medallist, Arndt Schmitt, competed. I was in the second flight, again, and got to watch most of his pool bouts. In his second bout he lost to some no name Canadian 5-1. And he wasn't slacking off either, his opponent just scored a bunch of low percentage hits in a row. So with one loss he ended up seeded 17th. The guy who had a brilliant first round and ended up seeded 1st was very upset to discover he had to beat Arndt Schmitt to even make it into the top 16. He didn't. Schmitt won the tournament.

Some people don't like epee because it's such a tactical, percentage game. And some like it just for that reason.

gary hayenga

I don't think that's true. I, personally, don't commit to an attack unless I know that unless they pull something impressive out of their...sleeve, I'm going to get the touch. I wouldn't ever think of it as "I've got a 60% chance of hitting". I guess that's just me, though.

Also, I do think that epee is random. I've lost touches before that I should have won because my opponent managed to hit something in JUUUUUUST the right way to make a light go off when I beat him in the touch. That has nothing to do with probability, it has to do with his luck in accidentally hitting me at the right time.

[shango]

Personally, I think you're all smoking crack.

[Gav]

I can't believe the rubbish I am reading. There is no randomness in Epee; same as there is no randomness in Sabre or Foil. The only really lucky hits occur when either you or your opponent does something unexpected and unexpectedly get the hit. That is lucky; but it's luck born of the situation. The idea that Epee is just about "setting lights off" is ridiculous - unless you admit that that is the same game as Foil or Sabre (where you get the same 'lucky' hits). If you admit that, then what is the point in making that as a statement in the first place?

sheesh

[shango]

I can't believe the rubbish I am reading. There is no randomness in Epee; same as there is no randomness in Sabre or Foil. The only really lucky hits occur when either you or your opponent does something unexpected and unexpectedly get the hit. That is lucky; but it's luck born of the situation. The idea that Epee is just about "setting lights off" is ridiculous - unless you admit that that is the same game as Foil or Sabre (where you get the same 'lucky' hits). If you admit that, then what is the point in making that as a statement in the first place?

sheesh

Read my aforeposted (probably not a real word) statement

[mrbiggs]

I can't believe the rubbish I am reading. There is no randomness in Epee; same as there is no randomness in Sabre or Foil. The only really lucky hits occur when either you or your opponent does something unexpected and unexpectedly get the hit. That is lucky; but it's luck born of the situation. The idea that Epee is just about "setting lights off" is ridiculous - unless you admit that that is the same game as Foil or Sabre (where you get the same 'lucky' hits). If you admit that, then what is the point in making that as a statement in the first place?

sheesh

I don't think that it's necessarily more random than Foil or Sabre in terms of the number of lucky/random hits that set off a light. It's just than in epee, those random hits are nearly always a point, whereas in foil and sabre, it could be off target, and there's RoW to protect most intentional actions.

[Zara_athlen]

I liked the old timings and I like the new timings. Mostly I think they should bring back flicks but keep the new tighter lock out times. As for epee its fun, but foil I have a better time with. And most good refs look at the action not the scream