Go black don't come back

[grotto]

If that were true, then you would not be able to loose an epee bout.

Reading this over again, I need to elaborate. Part of attacking in epee is looking for an opening, a time when your opponent will not hit you before you hit them. If I see such an opening, and I attack into it, and you counterattack randomly, having been caught off guard, yet you get the point because though I was doing everything correctly, your point happened to snag my sleeve, I think it's fair to say that you got the point on luck.

Mr Biggs, I understand your point, but you cannot be executing a "correct" attack if you opponent can "randomly" bring their point to bear and "snag your sleeve" Reason 1: your arm is out of position. You are no longer protected properly by your bell. Reason 2: your correct attack is aimed too deep. though your attack is correct (in your eyes) say to the upper arm, your opponent is tracking / aiming for your forearm. Reason 3: incorrect angulation. what may seem like an off guard counter may just be a very skillful angulated shot to the arm. All of this is part of the deception and game of epee. essentially if you get hit during your attack you were incorrect in you analysis of the situation... or the other guy corrected faster than you executed.

[Tydive]

I don't think that's necessarily true. I think that nearly all sports have a certain minimum level of knowledge required to watch. Have you ever seen someone who has never seen an (American) football match try to watch? They have no idea what's going on! Usually, they get bored trying to follow it after a few seconds, and change the channel. Fencing is no different. The problem is that the public does not have that certain minimum level of knowledge required to watch fencing.

But they will.

Oh yes, they will.

Very good point. I know watching hockey with my buddy who is a fan is fun mainly because his commentary is good. But my knowledge of the sport is zero so it's not fun to watch. I guess the challenge statement then is to have the format and commentators make it interesting. Much like the TV poker shows, that sucked really bad until they came up with the cameras under the felt. Maybe we need helmit cams...

[achilleus]

If that were true, then you would not be able to loose an epee bout.

Reading this over again, I need to elaborate. Part of attacking in epee is looking for an opening, a time when your opponent will not hit you before you hit them. If I see such an opening, and I attack into it, and you counterattack randomly, having been caught off guard, yet you get the point because though I was doing everything correctly, your point happened to snag my sleeve, I think it's fair to say that you got the point on luck.

Ya know, hearing you talk about this reminds me of a comment a coach of mine said a while back.

I was a young pup then, still learning the ropes, and a teammate commented on how infighting in epee seemed random.

My coach looked at us, and said 'Infighting is a combination of positioning, technique, and luck. Interestingly enough, the more you train, the better your tactics and technique are, and that explains why the best fencers in the world seem to get lucky the most often.'

[kalivor]

If that were true, then you would not be able to loose an epee bout.

Reading this over again, I need to elaborate. Part of attacking in epee is looking for an opening, a time when your opponent will not hit you before you hit them. If I see such an opening, and I attack into it, and you counterattack randomly, having been caught off guard, yet you get the point because though I was doing everything correctly, your point happened to snag my sleeve, I think it's fair to say that you got the point on luck.

While I'm not primarily an epee fencer, this reminds me of when I came off piste years ago ... I was upset, after losing 5-1. I thought all the hits should have been mine: I came in, had priority, and bang! I would just barely miss, and be hit with a counterattack.

I was feeling angry at myself, and a friend said "Well, he's tough to fence." I respond: "Well, I had him beat every time, I just missed him." The friend: "Did you miss, or did he make you miss?"

I refused to believe that someone could make me miss. I was right there, my point almost contacting his lame! In retrospect, that's exactly what happened. My hand was slightly out of position, he recognised it, and twisted slightly to avoid being hit. I thought it was luck, 5 times out of 6. It wasn't -- I did something wrong, he did something right. On the remaining point, he probably let me hit him (to encourage me not to stop my idiotic attacks), but maybe he screwed up that one time.

The point does not "just happen" to snag your sleeve. It does so due to what has transpired -- the relative locations of hands, arms and epees. There's no luck there, just fact. And these positions -- the actions that have just occurred are bad for you (as you were hit). Good fencers recognise this, try to figure out what, in an otherwise "safe" action got them hit, so it won't happen again.

Are there lucky hits? Sure. But usually "luck" is self-made through technique and tactics.

[telkanuru]

If that were true, then you would not be able to loose an epee bout.

Reading this over again, I need to elaborate. Part of attacking in epee is looking for an opening, a time when your opponent will not hit you before you hit them. If I see such an opening, and I attack into it, and you counterattack randomly, having been caught off guard, yet you get the point because though I was doing everything correctly, your point happened to snag my sleeve, I think it's fair to say that you got the point on luck.

If I ever bump into you IRL, we will do a test. You will assume any en guard you like, I will hit your arm. The only ways to avoid a countertime action in epee are distance and timing. Any action in itself may be stop hit. I've seen entire lessons to this effect. I'm not even referring to flicks, either. Angulations are all that are needed.

[flyingfencer]

If that were true, then you would not be able to loose an epee bout.

Reading this over again, I need to elaborate. Part of attacking in epee is looking for an opening, a time when your opponent will not hit you before you hit them. If I see such an opening, and I attack into it, and you counterattack randomly, having been caught off guard, yet you get the point because though I was doing everything correctly, your point happened to snag my sleeve, I think it's fair to say that you got the point on luck.

I don't want to pile on, but I would have to disagree. If your opponent hits you on the arm with a counter, it had very little to do with luck. This is part of the essence of Epee, draw an attack and pick off your opponent as he/she attacks.