Re: Advertising

Thanks for the replies from B.C. Milligan, Harold Buck & Fencerbill.

No gear and no scam to sell. It's just that I am a Bioflow (magnotherapy)
distributor and I have been able to help people in other sports etc with
injuries and similar problems and I wondered if it would be OK to mention it
here.

If it's not acceptable, let me know and I'll drop it and just discuss
fencing!

Thanks again

Mike H

Hello,

I too am a Bioflow distributor. Hmmm... quite a few about...

Anyway Harold, if you would like to see clinical trials that "suggest"
magnotherapy works then have a look here:
http://www.majorgrooves.co.uk/magnets/evidence.html

I have links to few Pubmed references of Clinical trials using magnets
to treat various conditions.

Hope that helps

-Steve


>
> I'd say hold off on posting anything until you have some clinical trials
> that prove "magnotherapy" actually works. Until then, post to
> alt.sales.snake-oil
>
> --Harold Buck
>

Steven Renwick wrote:
> Anyway Harold, if you would like to see clinical trials that "suggest"
> magnotherapy works then have a look here:
> http://www.majorgrooves.co.uk/magnets/evidence.html

Hmm. "suggest"? quite the definitive statement there.

Direct quote from that web page:

"Despite the lack of actual scientific information on how magnet therapy
works..."

Wow, makes me really trust these guys.

"... there is much evidence that it does work. For a start, magnet
therapy has been use since ancient times to aid healing ..."

So has using leeches, radium water, whale bones, blood letting,
chanting, laying of hands, animal sacrifice, exorcism, etc.

"... and thousands of Bioflow customers who have successfully used
Bioflow products give testimony to the effects of magnet therapy."

Are those the same thousands who claim alien abuction too?

Aaron Caba

I won't believe the results until the dogs
get a placebo-controlled study, too.

Joe


Steven Renwick wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I too am a Bioflow distributor. Hmmm... quite a few about...
>
> Anyway Harold, if you would like to see clinical trials that "suggest"
> magnotherapy works then have a look here:
> http://www.majorgrooves.co.uk/magnets/evidence.html
>
> I have links to few Pubmed references of Clinical trials using magnets
> to treat various conditions.
>
> Hope that helps
>
> -Steve
>
>
>
>>I'd say hold off on posting anything until you have some clinical trials
>>that prove "magnotherapy" actually works. Until then, post to
>>alt.sales.snake-oil
>>
>>--Harold Buck
>>

The study with the dogs is placebo controlled. That's what the "sham control" is....




Joe Hoffman <jhoffman@patriot.net> wrote in message news:<8BSSc.12269$pT5.11937@lakeread05>...
> I won't believe the results until the dogs
> get a placebo-controlled study, too.
>
> Joe

> Hmm. "suggest"? quite the definitive statement there.

That's right. It only suggests. I could have said that it "shows" or
"proves" that it works, but it is only few clinical trials so in that
case it "suggests".

> Direct quote from that web page:
>
> "Despite the lack of actual scientific information on how magnet therapy
> works..."
>
> Wow, makes me really trust these guys.

Ignoring the hint of sarcasm there.... I'm glad it makes you trust me!
:-) There is no real work published on how magnet therapy might be
having these effects. You probably noticed in the paper on the
arthritis in dogs that although the magnet therapy had a significant
effect they could see no difference in protein expression by Western
blot.

Would it have been better if I said "this is how magnetism works..."?
Most other websites selling these products mention "energising cells'
or "altering the pH of the red blood cells" etc etc, but the only
cellular level paper I can find is one that says that magnetising
blood increases oxygenation levels, and even that doesn't say how that
might be. So for me it's completely open how it "might" work.


>
> "... and thousands of Bioflow customers who have successfully used
> Bioflow products give testimony to the effects of magnet therapy."
>
> Are those the same thousands who claim alien abuction too?

Ha! I'm not actually in the US. Here in the UK there are slightly
fewer people who get abducted! No, it is just normal people and pets
and horses. Anyway you are correct to state that anecdotal/ custormer
testimonies are not quantitative or proof of anything, but it is
something to bear in mind.

The NHS uses electro-magnetism. The NHS even has a homeopathy
hospital!

-Steve

> Hmm. "suggest"? quite the definitive statement there.

That's right. It only suggests. I could have said that it "shows" or
"proves" that it works, but it is only few clinical trials so in that
case it "suggests".

> Direct quote from that web page:
>
> "Despite the lack of actual scientific information on how magnet therapy
> works..."
>
> Wow, makes me really trust these guys.

Ignoring the hint of sarcasm there.... I'm glad it makes you trust me!
:-) There is no real work published on how magnet therapy might be
having these effects. You probably noticed in the paper on the
arthritis in dogs that although the magnet therapy had a significant
effect they could see no difference in protein expression by Western
blot.

Would it have been better if I said "this is how magnetism works..."?
Most other websites selling these products mention "energising cells'
or "altering the pH of the red blood cells" etc etc, but the only
cellular level paper I can find is one that says that magnetising
blood increases oxygenation levels, and even that doesn't say how that
might be. So for me it's completely open how it "might" work.


>
> "... and thousands of Bioflow customers who have successfully used
> Bioflow products give testimony to the effects of magnet therapy."
>
> Are those the same thousands who claim alien abuction too?

Ha! I'm not actually in the US. Here in the UK there are slightly
fewer people who get abducted! No, it is just normal people and pets
and horses. Anyway you are correct to state that anecdotal/ custormer
testimonies are not quantitative or proof of anything, but it is
something to bear in mind.

The NHS uses electro-magnetism. The NHS even has a homeopathy
hospital!

-Steve

Joe,

Since you seem to be the resident physicist here, how much strong is 500
gauss? Can I get 500 guass by walking near a 120V power cord, or would
I need to go and stand under one of those car-picking-up magnets?

Aaron

Power cords generate oscillating magnetic fields.
These are static. They're about 1000 times as
strong as the earth's magnetic field. I guess I
would describe 500 Gauss as "a big magnet", but
anyone who went to a school with "Tech" in its name
has certainly been exposed to stronger fields.

The study I would like to see next is what happens
to the success rate of the healing if you flip half
the magnets in the array upside down.

Joe

p.s. I'm glad that the dogs got placebos. How come
they didn't get questionnaires about their pain level?
Or did they chew up the pencils instead of marking the
answer sheet?
-------------------
Aaron Caba wrote:
> Joe,
>
> Since you seem to be the resident physicist here, how much strong is 500
> gauss? Can I get 500 guass by walking near a 120V power cord, or would
> I need to go and stand under one of those car-picking-up magnets?
>
> Aaron
>

Joe Hoffman writes:
> I guess I would describe 500 Gauss as "a big magnet", but anyone who went
> to a school with "Tech" in its name has certainly been exposed to
> stronger fields.

Some toy magnets manage 500 Gauss.
--
John Hasler
john@dhh.gt.org (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI

John Hasler wrote:
> Joe Hoffman writes:
>>I guess I would describe 500 Gauss as "a big magnet",
> Some toy magnets manage 500 Gauss.

The word "toy" is taking on some amazing definitions
these days. A few seconds' search came up with a toy
magnet that packs 48 million Gauss. This web page tells
you how to use them to make a gauss rifle:
http://www.scitoys.com/scitoys/scito...ets/gauss.html
I hereby change my description to "the biggest magnet I
could get my hands on thirty years ago."

I am now pondering the purchase of several of those little
monsters so I can slip them into my opponent's pocket during
the weapon test. It won't help my point control, but if
I tell him I did it, it might hurt his. (P<.05)

Joe