And who determined this??

For those of you might care ESPN, rated fencing
as 24th in terms of difficulty, lower
than softball.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sportSkills

Obviously their experts are twits.

J.

Jonathan Jefferies <jonathanjefferies@alamedanet.net> wrote:
> For those of you might care ESPN, rated fencing
> as 24th in terms of difficulty, lower
> than softball.
>
> http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sportSkills
>
> Obviously their experts are twits.
>
> J.

These are the twits:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...ge=degree/bios

ObeeKris

> For those of you might care ESPN, rated fencing
> as 24th in terms of difficulty, lower
> than softball.
>
> http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sportSkills
>
> Obviously their experts are twits.

There's the odd category I don't agree with. Hand-eye coordination is
woefully underated - it should be 10 instead of 7.25! The rest I broadly
agree with. Using their categories I raise fencing to the dizzy hights of
17.

However, their rating system does ignore technical difficulty; reaction
time; ability to look good in breeches in the 21st century; and ability to
carry on fencing competitively in the middle of summer in a boiling hot
sports hall whilst wearing several layers of clothing, a glove and a large,
padded mask!

> However, their rating system does ignore technical difficulty; reaction
> time; ability to look good in breeches in the 21st century; and ability to
> carry on fencing competitively in the middle of summer in a boiling hot
> sports hall whilst wearing several layers of clothing, a glove and a
large,
> padded mask!

Someone has clearly never played football in August. =)

Fencing in the University of Kansas' unventilated, 90 degree, 3rd floor
gymnasium in the dead of summer was bad. Two-a-days in 100 degree heat in
full pads back in the day were slightly worse.

-Bill

Jonathan Jefferies <jonathanjefferies@alamedanet.net> wrote:
> For those of you might care ESPN, rated fencing
> as 24th in terms of difficulty, lower
> than softball.
>
> http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sportSkills
>
> Obviously their experts are twits.

Heh. Too true. Sometimes I think these rankings are invented for no
reason other than to stir up (profitable!) controversy.

For instance, analytic aptitude doesn't consider whether the analysis
is done in realtime (fencing) or off-time (billiards). And while
"Nerve" is something that has to be overcome for sure, but once you're
an active athlete in a field, does it really enter into things?

Then there are the actual values. I don't even think I'll get started
on those!

But at least it's entertaining.
Colin

Jonathan Jefferies wrote:

> For those of you might care ESPN, rated fencing
> as 24th in terms of difficulty, lower
> than softball.
>
> http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sportSkills
>
> Obviously their experts are twits.
>
> J.


If I was a freestyle skiier, I'd be really upset. Those guys on skis are
nuts! Seriously, I don't know why Fencing is ranked as easier than
Martial Arts when Fencing could be qualified as a Martial Art.

--
Amy and Joseph Kormann

In rec.sport.fencing on Thu, 06 May 2004 20:38:37 -0400
Amy & Joseph Kormann <ajkormann@monmouth.com> wrote:
> If I was a freestyle skiier, I'd be really upset. Those guys on skis are
> nuts! Seriously, I don't know why Fencing is ranked as easier than
> Martial Arts when Fencing could be qualified as a Martial Art.


eh? It's a sport, with nothing to do with duelling or any martial
aspect anymore, all about lights going off.

I mean that's what they tell me on rec.sport.fencing after all...

Zebee

--
Zebee Johnstone (zebee@zip.com.au), proud holder of
aus.motorcycles Poser Permit #1.
"Motorcycles are like peanuts... who can stop at just one?"

William Black wrote:

>"Amy & Joseph Kormann" <ajkormann@monmouth.com> wrote in message
>news:c7em7a$gna$1@news.monmouth.com...
>
>
>
>>If I was a freestyle skiier, I'd be really upset. Those guys on skis are
>>nuts! Seriously, I don't know why Fencing is ranked as easier than
>>Martial Arts when Fencing could be qualified as a Martial Art.
>>
>>
>
>In what way exactly is it a martial art?
>
>
>
Depending on your definition of Fencing. IMHO, I'd have to say that
Fencing could be a Martial Art - once you define what a Martial Art is.
We can start with "any of several arts of combat and self-defense (as
karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sport"
[http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...l+art&x=0&y=0]
.. LEWT may qualify since it started as a way to practice combat and is
now a recognized sport. SCA is a bit closer because the rules are geared
more towards realism (ROW in Foil) and there are 'single touch kills'. I
don't know enough about many of the other weapons systems / forms to
talk about them.

Let me put the inverse question to you: How is Fencing not a martial art?

--
Amy and Joseph Kormann

In article <409a5356@news.nucleus.com>,
"Colin B." <cbigam@somewhereelse.nucleus.com> wrote:

> Sometimes I think these rankings are invented for no
> reason other than to stir up (profitable!) controversy.

Why do you only think that sometimes?


--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Can the technique you learn in fencing be used as a mean of self defence, it
think that is how it couldn't be considered as a martial art. However, much
depend on how you are learning it and who is teaching. I think that if you
train for not being touched at all, this is a martial art, however if you
train to touch first or with priority, it is no more a martial art. The
technique in fencing emphasis on not being touched, so it is a martial art,
but then again it doesn't define somone as a martial artist, the true
warrior lies within our mindset. Then what is a warriror/martial artist
mindset, the warrior has to kill instead of beign killed, has to harm
instead of beign harmed. Then is fencing or every other martial art a
martial art? In technique sure it is, it was why it was done. But how is
your fencing? Or a better question is, are you a martial artist?
Professionnal killer who use all his will to survive, train all his life for
the only purpose of killing. Like it or not this is a martial art only
purpose, however a sport is to entertain us.

Agleos Arkeneight

"Amy & Joseph Kormann" <ajkormann@monmouth.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:c7hah7$dr$1@news.monmouth.com...
> William Black wrote:
>
> >"Amy & Joseph Kormann" <ajkormann@monmouth.com> wrote in message
> >news:c7em7a$gna$1@news.monmouth.com...
> >
> >
> >
> >>If I was a freestyle skiier, I'd be really upset. Those guys on skis are
> >>nuts! Seriously, I don't know why Fencing is ranked as easier than
> >>Martial Arts when Fencing could be qualified as a Martial Art.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >In what way exactly is it a martial art?
> >
> >
> >
> Depending on your definition of Fencing. IMHO, I'd have to say that
> Fencing could be a Martial Art - once you define what a Martial Art is.
> We can start with "any of several arts of combat and self-defense (as
> karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sport"
>
[http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...ial+art&x=0&y=
0]
> . LEWT may qualify since it started as a way to practice combat and is
> now a recognized sport. SCA is a bit closer because the rules are geared
> more towards realism (ROW in Foil) and there are 'single touch kills'. I
> don't know enough about many of the other weapons systems / forms to
> talk about them.
>
> Let me put the inverse question to you: How is Fencing not a martial art?
>
> --
> Amy and Joseph Kormann
>

> I think that if you
>train for not being touched at all, this is a martial art, however if you
>train to touch first or with priority, it is no more a martial art.

So epee is a martial art, but not foil? Hmm...

I'll just add, from several years of doing an inarguable martial art, that even
they have artificial rules and aren't so much about real combat. The using of
a sword, or striking with foot or hand, in simulated combat makes it "martial."
The other stuff is where the "art" comes in.

Joe

>Can the technique you learn in fencing be used as a mean of self defence, it
>think that is how it couldn't be considered as a martial art. However, much
>depend on how you are learning it and who is teaching.

There are a number of instructors in both the US and Abroad who teach
"Classical" Fencing, as opposed to the Olympic Style, as a Martial Art. This
Link http://www.kmoser.com/classicalfencing.htm Lists a number of resources.

I said to touch first (epee) and with priority (foil, saber) considering
that both opponent are touched it doesnt matter if you touched a second
before or after, or who had the right to touch both could be dead. So modern
competition fencing is not intended to ressemble a martial art or science.
And most the other part when the art come in is the stuff in martial art
that is not usable in combat is intented to train mind and body. Masters
knew that when they develloped their style, however much is lost today,
katas is to Karate as the glove game is to fencing. I wouldnt do katas in a
fight nor would try to hit the opponent with a glove however it is a good
training for the mind and the body.

Agleos



"JDzik" <jdzik@aol.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:20040510110901.15763.00001319@mb-m16.aol.com...
> > I think that if you
> >train for not being touched at all, this is a martial art, however if you
> >train to touch first or with priority, it is no more a martial art.
>
> So epee is a martial art, but not foil? Hmm...
>
> I'll just add, from several years of doing an inarguable martial art, that
even
> they have artificial rules and aren't so much about real combat. The
using of
> a sword, or striking with foot or hand, in simulated combat makes it
"martial."
> The other stuff is where the "art" comes in.
>
> Joe

>And most the other part when the art come in is the stuff in martial art
>that is not usable in combat is intented to train mind and body.

I'd argue that even sparring in most martial arts classes tend to be on the
artificial side. Not as artificial as fencing, to be sure. But restricted
target areas, restricted maneuvers, separate point values for hits on certain
parts of the body, lack of weapons, fighting in rings that limit maneuver,
pulling punches, sparring for points instead of to knock-out, etc, are all
unrealistic elements that are standard parts of martial arts.

The way I'd view it is that fencing is as much a martial art as any of the
others. However, it has evolved more in the direction of "art" than what you'd
find in a typical dojo. The primary reason for this is that real sword
fighting is more deadly than is real unarmed fighting, and therefore you need a
greater degree of abstraction and rules in order to reduce injury.

Note also that a typical martial arts class is more likely than a fencing class
to include the occasional session focusing strictly on self-defense. But
self-defense, while being martial, is not a martial art, and its grouping with
a martial art does not mean that the martial art itself is true combat.

Plus, of course, much of the draw of martial arts classes is to appeal to the
macho instincts of the practioners, while the appeal of fencing is for those of
us who'd like to be able to run around with feathers in our hats! :-)

Joe

In rec.sport.fencing on 10 May 2004 17:25:32 GMT
JDzik <jdzik@aol.com> wrote:
> The way I'd view it is that fencing is as much a martial art as any of the
> others. However, it has evolved more in the direction of "art" than what you'd
> find in a typical dojo. The primary reason for this is that real sword

I think it's evolved to a sport, not an art.

There are people who practice fencing as an art, those are the ones who
focus on form, and what-if-it-was-sharp and emphasise that it's not
about the touch but doing it right and when done right you get the
touch.

I believe that most LEWTers are very focused on the sport element and
don't give a damn about the art of it except as it gets the touch a
fraction before the other guy.

There are LEWTers who treat it as a martial art rather than a sport, but
I don't think that's the common approach.

Zebee

Zebee Johnstone writes:

>I think it's evolved to a sport, not an art.

Point taken. But I'd say that all martial arts are pretty much the same there.
Boxing, karate, judo, wrestling, etc, are all firmly in the sport category,
with competitions focusing on sparring matches that are in their way almost as
abstracted from real combat as is fencing. Fencing is, as I mentioned, just a
little more down that road.

(From my days doing tae kwon do, one of my favorite sparring moves was to reach
out and knock the other guy on the head with the back of my hand. It's a move
that would do no real damage in a fight, but was enough to score a point. Call
it the martial arts equivalent of a flick, down to having a similar wrist
movement.)

Admittedly, eastern martial arts also have forms or kata, which are a bit more
arty than anything in fencing. Then again, their artfulness is on a par with
figure skating and gymnastics, both of which are sports. (I know that some
would argue that point, but I view such folk as spoil sports.)

Joe

Zebee Johnstone wrote:

>In rec.sport.fencing on 10 May 2004 17:25:32 GMT
>JDzik <jdzik@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>>The way I'd view it is that fencing is as much a martial art as any of the
>>others. However, it has evolved more in the direction of "art" than what you'd
>>find in a typical dojo. The primary reason for this is that real sword
>>
>>
>
>I think it's evolved to a sport, not an art.
>

See (with personal emphasis added):
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/martial-art.../preamble.html

>
> rec.martial-arts FAQ part 4 of 4 (LONG)
>
>The dictionary definition handy at the moment defines a martial art
>as "Any of several Oriental arts of combat or self-defense, as karate,
>judo, or tae kwon do, usually practiced as a sport."
>
>That definition is guaranteed to offend just about everyone who reads
>this group. [Note: Martial Arts group]
>
>Typically this group uses "Martial Art" in one of two ways:
>
>1) The first definition is a generic one, which defines a "Martial Art"
> as the study of any kind of combat and/or self-defense techniques.
>
> This definition includes non-oriental arts like boxing. This definition
> includes both those arts practiced primarily as a sport, and those arts
> practiced primarily for self-defense. This definition includes those
> arts that emphasize only physical technique. This definition also
> includes those arts that emphasize a philosophical or mental aspect in
> addition to physical techniques. In its broadest usage, this definition
> includes learning how to drive a tank or drop bombs out of a plane as a
> Martial Art. This explains the somewhat facetious references you will
> see to "Gun Fu", the martial art of learning how to use firearms
> (implying, as the dictionary definition does, that a martial art must
> be oriental to be legitimate).
>
>2) The second definition is much narrower, and draws a distinction
> between a "Martial *ART*" and a "Martial *WAY*". To offer a gross
> simplification:
>
> A martial *art* is the study of an art that emphasizes only physical
> techniques. Perfection of technique is the primary concern.
>
> A martial *way* emphasizes the study of both physical techniques and
> a philosophical or mental aspect as well. Perfection of the self is
> the primary concern.
>
> The emphasis on this distinction is very clear for those arts that have
> Japanese names.
>
> Typically, Japanese martial *art* style names end in "jutsu", such as
> "jiu-jutsu", "aiki-jiujutsu", or "ken-jutsu".
>
> Typically Japanese martial *way* style names end in "do", such as
> "ju-do", "aiki-do", or "ken-do".
>
>A lot of bandwidth has been wasted by those arguing about whether something
>is or isn't a martial art, without first establishing which definition -
>including the dictionary definition - is being used.
>
>According to the dictionary definition, boxing is *not* a martial art.
>According to definitions one and two, above, boxing *is* a martial art.
>
>According to the dictionary definition and definition one, above, karate
>*is* a martial art. According to definition two, above, karate (frequently
>written as karate-do) is *not* a martial art (it is a martial *way*).
>
>In the end, it is really the attitude of the individual doing the
>practicing that determines whether, for *them*, what they are learning
>is a "martial art" or a "martial way". The person standing next to you
>in your school may or may not be practicing with the same attitude as
>you are - one of you may be treating what you learn as a "martial way",
>and the other may be approaching the same material as a "martial art".

And the third, we might argue, is approaching the material as a "combat sport."

Katas are a training method, intended to develop muscle fitness, precision
and in some case cardio. My point is that every martial training can be a
martial training as well as a sport. Whatever it is art, science, etc it all
depend of the intentions of each individuals who train in a specific form.
Of course sport competition or free sparring ressemble by no means to a real
fight whatever it is karate or fencing. However a proper form is still
available to use in a fight, all depend on how you trainned yourself to it.
For example if you trainned in doing (epee here) 70 % double hit, 30 %
single hit then you are likely to die in an encounter, however if you were
focused on taking opponent blade and making him a single proper hit to the
chest area without being touched at all, then you are really, really
dangerous in a real fight.

Agleos Arkeneight










"JDzik" <jdzik@aol.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:20040511083504.17796.00001086@mb-m18.aol.com...
> Zebee Johnstone writes:
>
> >I think it's evolved to a sport, not an art.
>
> Point taken. But I'd say that all martial arts are pretty much the same
there.
> Boxing, karate, judo, wrestling, etc, are all firmly in the sport
category,
> with competitions focusing on sparring matches that are in their way
almost as
> abstracted from real combat as is fencing. Fencing is, as I mentioned,
just a
> little more down that road.
>
> (From my days doing tae kwon do, one of my favorite sparring moves was to
reach
> out and knock the other guy on the head with the back of my hand. It's a
move
> that would do no real damage in a fight, but was enough to score a point.
Call
> it the martial arts equivalent of a flick, down to having a similar wrist
> movement.)
>
> Admittedly, eastern martial arts also have forms or kata, which are a bit
more
> arty than anything in fencing. Then again, their artfulness is on a par
with
> figure skating and gymnastics, both of which are sports. (I know that
some
> would argue that point, but I view such folk as spoil sports.)
>
> Joe

In article <20040511083504.17796.00001086@mb-m18.aol.com>,
jdzik@aol.com (JDzik) wrote:

> Admittedly, eastern martial arts also have forms or kata, which are a bit more
> arty than anything in fencing. Then again, their artfulness is on a par with
> figure skating and gymnastics, both of which are sports. (I know that some
> would argue that point, but I view such folk as spoil sports.)


Please don't pretend for a moment that even reasonable people can come
to an agreement about what is a sport and what isn't. It just isn't
something that you can come up with a clear definition into which
everyone will buy.

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Easy a sport revolve around the possession of some spheroid piece of leather
without any real practical value.

he he he


"Harold Buck" <no_one_knows@attbi.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:no_one_knows-51FF26.10073211052004@comcast.ash.giganews.com...
> In article <20040511083504.17796.00001086@mb-m18.aol.com>,
> jdzik@aol.com (JDzik) wrote:
>
> > Admittedly, eastern martial arts also have forms or kata, which are a
bit more
> > arty than anything in fencing. Then again, their artfulness is on a par
with
> > figure skating and gymnastics, both of which are sports. (I know that
some
> > would argue that point, but I view such folk as spoil sports.)
>
>
> Please don't pretend for a moment that even reasonable people can come
> to an agreement about what is a sport and what isn't. It just isn't
> something that you can come up with a clear definition into which
> everyone will buy.
>
> --Harold Buck
>
>
> "I used to rock and roll all night,
> and party every day.
> Then it was every other day. . . ."
> -Homer J. Simpson