Learning to Referee

[Shadow Fencer]

Coming out of the shadows to relearn foil referee skills is tough! I admit not fencing for 22 years has not helped either and I've only been back into fencing for less than 7 months. I'm observing referees at competitions, studying USFA rules, learning the current terms. My greatest challenge is being able to verbalize the final actions.

If anyone has any hints, I'd appreciate them. At this time I'm practicing refereeing at my club and get feedback from the coach (it's nerve wracking knowing he's watching- he tells me I should be able to make the call in less than 4 seconds!)

Thanks for letting me whine!!! I'm hoping the skills will return with practice and time! Hey, that rhymes.




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I live to fence and fence to live!!

[Craig]

Go with your first instint on a call. It's most likely the right one. If it isn't, you'll learn quickly!

The main things that you need to do are be clear and be consistent. Just pay attention to the phrases and they'll sort themselves out for you.

Really, other than practicing being a ref, there is no good way to improve.

Cheers,
Craig

[edew]

I think what your coach wants you to do is not deliberate and mull over the action in your mind and call whatever you feel happened.

What I've noticed in attending some refereeing seminars, is that what separates a novice referee from a more experienced referee is not what they see, how how quickly and fluidly the experienced referee can call the action. Call the action immediately and stick to it. 90% of the time (in foil), your call is correct because the action is pretty typical: attack, parry-riposte, remise; attack, counter-attack.

Refereeing seminars should, rather than go over the order of right-of-way (which all attendees to such seminars should know already), discuss how to present the calls effectively. Yeah, there are some referees who consider a coupe in foil to be a preparation, and there are others who don't. Let the fencers deal with that.

Your coach is perfectly right to say that you should make the call in less than four seconds. I think you should make the call IMMEDIATELY after you call halt.

I have left-right dyslexia of some sort (not officially diagnosed, but I'm quite aware of it), so I say left when I mean right and vice-versa. So, I avoid saying left and right by using the hand signals. That can help you as well.

Making your calls immediately help instill confidence in you by the fencers. Nothing is more unsettling to a fencer than some rather ordinary action occurring and then have the referee stand there, mull over the action ten ways to Sunday, shake his head, rub his chin, nod his head, point somewhere (i.e., use non-standard hand signals), and then say, "on guard, I don't know."

When you're learning and practicing in the club, better to call it immediate and wrong than to call it right after a minute of personal deliberations. The fencers will give you non-derogatory feedback if you made a wrong right-of-way call.

[Moonitic]

lol..my coach (who is a rated director) says, "If you aren't sure what happened, say something & be firm about it." You're the boss on the strip.

Couldn't agree with your coach more. I make all my students learn how to direct for 2 reasons. 1) we are a small group and need them to help with that duty. 2) I feel it helps them to understand what's taking place on the strip better. We just had this same conversation this week. Better to make a decision and learn from your mistakes than to waste everyone's time and bringing your understanding of the game into doubt. It also speeds up your vision, if that makes sense.

[Shadow Fencer]

Thanks everyone! Your suggestions and support are greatly appreciated.

[swordsen]

Of course if you are not sure I hope what you say is,
"I don't know. On guard."

[veeco]

Originally posted by swordsen:
Of course if you are not sure I hope what you say is,
"I don't know. On guard."

Oh yeah! Sure! Say that a couple of times and you'll get busted.
As far as I'm concerned, there's always at least a hint in the action that lets you know what happened. Remember, refereeing is not about being objective. You tell what you saw, and that's it. If someone has a problem with it, then they have to deal with it.

The only time you're allowed to say I don't know is when a simultaneous action occurs.

[edew]

Once, I was refereeing at some local practice bout and Derek Cotton was watching me referee. One guy attacked, pulled his arm back, the other guy hesitated as well and then stuck his weapon out just about the same time the attacking guy extended his. I said, "I don't know." Derek said that I HAVE to make that call. It's either attack, counter-attack, or counter-attack in time, but make the call.

There really shouldn't be any I-don't-knows. The only time you call a I don't know is when you're busy staring at the busty blonde who just walked by.

Especially in those cases where one makes a big feint and the other person sorta bites the feint, and counter-attacks, one must make the call.

[Shadow Fencer]

Edew- I can't believe someone besides myself would admit to having a left- right dyslexia thing! I lable it directional dyslexia! Not mentioning right or left is a good suggestion for me! As for staring at busty blonds, I'd prefer to stare at my coach instead!

Swordsen- my coach has prodded me to tell the action, even if it's a case of a white light going off first and I think the only time I can get away with saying "I don't know" is if the action is truly simultaneous, but then I should be saying "simultaneous"! Sigh, that's why this learning period is tough, but I'm grateful that I can make mistakes in my club for now! I'm going to try to stay calm tonight as I think being calm will enable me to see the action more clearly.

Inhale on the count of 4, exhale slowly... could someone pass the wine please?




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I live to fence and fence to live!!

[swordsen]

So you advocate making it up if you aren't sure? Lord let me hope I NEVER have you guys as directors.
The clinics I have been to have always emphasised that if you don't know what the action was you should say so and get along with the fencing. don't call it because it might have been or probably was.
Different strokes I guess......

[Stryder]

Shadow Fencer,
One of the most helpful hints I ever got was to keep my calls as simple as possible.

There are five words a Referee must know. The rest are extraneous.

1. Line. (rare but it is one of the five)
2. Attack.
3. Counter.
4. Riposte.
5. Remise.

Optional:
Preperation. (this is not an action, it is a description, you can say it if you want to.)

Every word you say will be held against you in the court of public opinion. If you call the action simple and shut up, your detractors will have less ammo to fire at you. (Hand signals are even better, but you still have to use these words to explain to a whiner.)

Never make the call in an apologetic manner. Force the fencers to take responsibility for the outcome of the bout, and they will do so.

PS: 4 seconds is generous. There is no action that you can call 4 seconds afterwards, that you can't call immediately afterwards. When the lights come on, your hand goes up.

[This message has been edited by Stryder (edited 04-11-2001).]

[d8m2k]

Make the call and stick with it. When you make a mistake (and you will), do not admit it.


[This message has been edited by d8m2k (edited 04-10-2001).]

[Peach]

There is a place for the call of "I don't know." Usually it is in youth fencing or Division III, when the actions of both fencers are unclear. The function of a referee at that stage is partly to help fencers improve their fencing, and an arbitrary call is inappropriate. I find if I am just as authoritative about saying "I'm sorry, I do not know," as I am about awarding a touch, the fencers don't argue and don't seem disconcerted. Worse than that is pausing, looking puzzled, or speaking hesitantly.

I have had internationally-rated directors say "I don't know" during my bouts in NACs. Once was because the referee just plain wasn't looking and admitted it; another time when my parry was so inelegant the referee could not be sure I had actually pulled it off and did not wish to award the 5th touch in a pool bout on an unclear action.

(I remember the first call because it was a one-lighter (mine, of course <grin> ) and the second because it would have meant I had beaten a much more distinguished fencer than I.)

Last year when I was refereeing at Summer Nationals, Bill Goering did me the favor of observing me informally. He approached me afterwards and made some useful comments, telling me my calls had been correct, and then he said, "Don't change your expression when you don't like an action."

"I can't help it," I said and laughed. "I'm an elementary teacher. I'm used to giving a disapproving look."

"No. Here you're not an elementary teacher, you're not a fencer, you're not even a person. You're a position, the position of referee," he said.

[neevel]

Best story I've ever heard regarding sticking to your guns even if you suspect you may have blown a call:

Joe Biebel was refereeing at a High School tournament and called an action attack-riposte-remise, touch for the riposte. The coach of the fencer who received the touch was dead certain that it was a malparry and the initial attack had arrived. Joe quite definitely stood his ground with the coach. After the bout was over the fencer's parents, who'd been taping the bout, joined the debate and said that their tape showed the attack sucessfully arriving. Joe's response:
"Well, then that videotape has obviously been doctored" .

[edew]

In the cases of youth and Div III fencing, you might also try the Greg Massialas approach: the one who set off the color light gets the point. Once, when women's Div III foil was fairly weak, and there was interminable off-targets, Greg told the pool that colored lights will be given the touch. They actually fenced better because of it.

Seriously, even in youth and Div III fencing, avoid "I don't know" as much as possible and make the call as best as you can. Otherwise, you'd be holding up the rest of the tournament because they made hundreds more off-targets or "simultaneous" hits.

[Peach]

Originally posted by edew:
Seriously, even in youth and Div III fencing, avoid "I don't know" as much as possible and make the call as best as you can. Otherwise, you'd be holding up the rest of the tournament because they made hundreds more off-targets or "simultaneous" hits.

Or, as I was told before I refereed my first beginning-of-season college meet (oh, my god, that was dreadful), "make something up."

[Purple Fencer]

I was first told (years and years ago), "if in doubt, throw it out."

Let's face it, some times you just can't see the action clearly enough to determine what happened when. I've had coaches ***** at me if they think I blew a call. I just say "that's the call. On Guard."

I've noticed that blown calls have a way of evening out sometimes.

Eric, what WAS the call on that one Derek saw? I'd lean towards the loss of the attack when the first guy pulled his arm back, making the counter attack in time.

I know that ideally there are very few simuls, but the reality is that a human can only see so much, regardless of how experienced they may be.

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Sam Signorelli -- I'll be mellow when I'm
DEAD!

[Stryder]

...you might also try the Greg Massialas approach: the one who set off the color light gets the point. Once, when women's Div III foil was fairly weak, and there was interminable off-targets, Greg told the pool that colored lights will be given the touch....[/b]

That is the nastiest thing I have ever heard. Massialas should have been fired for that, it's called cheating. "Hey Mr. Bayer, we are sick of seeing so many simultanious actions called in your bouts so we are changing the rules. Today only, any fencer who hits the other fencer in the six gets right of way. OK?"

There have been many times when the fencing at a certain level was not fun for me to watch, and I was tempted to speed things up by calling the actions incorrectly. I may have even done so on occasion, but not deliberately. Referee's make enough mistakes and each one takes away part of the experience of fencing that the competitors came for. The purpose of ANY tournament, Div 2, 3 or 36, is for fencers to fence each others in a competetive atmosphere, with a real director. There are no tournaments for the referee's! We work for the fencers.

Do your jobs.

[edew]

Stryder,

It was just encouragement by Greg to get the fencers to fence better. And it worked.

Sam,

You'd make a good Andy Shaw type referee, but I wouldn't want you by my strip. I'm more likely (now) to call it for the attacker. Derek only asked I make the call. He didn't tell me what to call.