double stick tape for foil grips.

I happend upon a roll of tape that is clear and works great! It is
double stick and very thin so as to not thicken the grip noticeeably.

its also clear so as to not be overly unsightly. I'm watching too much
Queer eye so every thing has to match and be metrosexual like now dont
ya know...notice I didnt say homo sexual... i said METRO lol.

Anyhoo i love the stuff its great for sticking to my glove enough so
that the weight of the weapon is fully supported by my arm as opposed
to just my hand. I dont have to grasp it anywhere near as tightly.

i also bandage my wrist up with a 3 inch by 1 yrd cloth bandage to
give extra support.

I think figgering out how one interfaces with their weapon and really
getting it down to a science and repeatable is worth taking a look at.

i have a great friend who is a lefty and uses a belgian grip dipped in
plastidip( a tool handle rubberizing product found at home depot) and
he uses this 14 cm bellAT LEAST... its like a WOK....every time i
fence him i lose because i start thinking of Chinese food! Sesame
Chicken anyone? In stead of plastidip i use 3m adhesive spray on my
grips.. or tape.

Finally, the glove i think is KEY!. SO much so that Im going to
someone who custom makes leather gloves out of deer skin.. I want it
to be very thin like the blue gauntlet leather glove but certainly
less ugly. I dont like cloth gloves because they stretch more readily
than leather and thus the fit doesnt feel as exact. even the uhlmann
gloves with the sticky rubber pads feels much like something i can buy
at Home depot.

I guess i feel that the foil should BE very light... as light as it
can be. But what weight ther is shouldnt be CARRIEd by the hand.
Rather the weight should be as far back as possible. this feeling
should further be buttressed by a sticky grip so the hand can be
relaxed such that the tip is controlled by the thumb and forefinger.

Magni

On 15 Mar 2004 01:31:20 -0800, michael_lichtstrom@yahoo.com (magni)
wrote (more or less):
>I think figgering out how one interfaces with their weapon and really
>getting it down to a science and repeatable is worth taking a look at.

I moulded a grip (in clay) specifically for my hand. I'm still
experimenting with different ways of casting it.


Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

If you guys spent your time doing footwork or practicing you would probably
get more out of it than screwing around with grips and theorizing that you
can become better by putting sticky stuff on the handles.


"Gawnsoft" <xlucid@users.sourceforge.remove.this.antispam.net > wrote in
message news:n2cc50di828r80f7orpsr3q95qcg3f0hr2@4ax.com...
> On 15 Mar 2004 01:31:20 -0800, michael_lichtstrom@yahoo.com (magni)
> wrote (more or less):
> >I think figgering out how one interfaces with their weapon and really
> >getting it down to a science and repeatable is worth taking a look at.
>
> I moulded a grip (in clay) specifically for my hand. I'm still
> experimenting with different ways of casting it.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Euan
> Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
> Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
> Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk)
http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

In article <Npv5c.2007$F17.604577@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>,
"Richard Hertz" <ipfreely@philmccrackin.com> wrote:

> If you guys spent your time doing footwork or practicing you would probably
> get more out of it than screwing around with grips and theorizing that you
> can become better by putting sticky stuff on the handles.


Yes, I think we can safely say that fencing is a sport in which your
equipment makes NO DIFFERENCE whatsoever in your performance, and that
your comfort level with your gear or the feel of your weapon is
irrelevant. Likewise, if your pressure spring is off by a factor of two
or three, or if your blade is 12 inches shorter than someone else's,
that should impact your performance.

<sniff> <sniff> Smell that? That's sarcasm. Anyway . . . .

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

"Richard Hertz" <ipfreely@philmccrackin.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:Npv5c.2007$F17.604577@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net ...
> If you guys spent your time doing footwork or practicing you would
probably
> get more out of it than screwing around with grips and theorizing that you
> can become better by putting sticky stuff on the handles.
>

Exactly what I would have said but I am far to ... hmmm gentle ...

Maybe not..

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 08:35:52 -0500, "Trim Plus Expert"
<trimplus@bellnet.ca> wrote (more or less):

>
>"Richard Hertz" <ipfreely@philmccrackin.com> a écrit dans le message de
>news:Npv5c.2007$F17.604577@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.ne t...
>> If you guys spent your time doing footwork or practicing you would
>> probably get more out of it than screwing around with grips
....
>
>Exactly what I would have said but I am far to ... hmmm gentle ...
>
>Maybe not..

Perhaps you have been able to find grips that fit your hand - but I
haven't. (Except once, when a pal brought a few back from
Communist-era Poland) And I've been fencing for decades now.

As I get older, I find comfort becomes something I'm more and more
interested in. (And I'm past the point where ultimate performance is
what I'm after. I've done my share of representative competition, and
I no longer go to clubs with members who are Olympic/World
Championship grade).


Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

In rec.sport.fencing on Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:34:37 GMT
Richard Hertz <ipfreely@philmccrackin.com> wrote:
> ability - perhaps for those who only can flick this makes a difference. 12
> inches shorter is a significant handicap and not a serious comment I think.
>

Might be a significan't handicap, but then I've fenced and won with a
12" dagger against someone else with a 40" sword and a 12" dagger. It
can be done. And one of our local blokes is terrifying with 2 daggers
against anything including a light epee.

technique and fencing intelligence is worth more than fancy grips when
push comes to shove. But are harder to obtain....

Zebee

Zebee Johnstone wrote:

>In rec.sport.fencing on 16 Mar 2004 13:01:42 -0800
>magni <michael_lichtstrom@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>The sticky stuff does help me alot to relax my iron death grip on the
>>foil. I dont feel as if I have to carry the weight of the weapon in my
>>hand. rather i just use the hand as a guide to your chest.
>>
>>
>>
>
>So how do people who don't use it manage? Do they all just grin and
>bear it, or could they, possibly, have discovered that practicing good
>form means your body adapts and you find it easy to relax and hold the
>weapon without tension or feeling you have to carry it.
>
>And when they praactice good form, they find it's both efficient and
>skeletally friendly so they aren't damaging themselves.
>
>It's just barely possible you know.
>
>Zebee
> - who fences a lot with 2lb of sword and no sticky tape.
>
>
Yup. Some of the best advice I've collected about how to fence better is
to know form, distance and timing. From talking with others who do
unarmed martial arts, they have the same basic rules. And following that
it shouldn't matter what weapon you use, if you know what you're doing
you'll be effective.

Of course there is the argument for comfort... If you find a grip that
suits you, use it. Guaranteed it'll be the best weapon you've ever had.

--
Amy and Joseph Kormann

In rec.sport.fencing on Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:01:33 -0500
Amy & Joseph Kormann <ajkormann@monmouth.com> wrote:
> Of course there is the argument for comfort... If you find a grip that
> suits you, use it. Guaranteed it'll be the best weapon you've ever had.


Oh hell yes, the hilt that fits so I can hold the thing properly is
lightyears away from the one that doesn't. I can fight with either, but
I'm a lot better with the one that fits.

It's not a substitute for knowing what I'm doing though, and the good
guys can wipe the floor with me using broomsticks. "A bad workman
blames his tools" and all that. A good fencer is a good fencer, no
matter what they are fencing with. If they are wrecking their muscles
and joints, the answer is "better form" not "latest lightest sword with
sticky tape". all the tape does is allow yu to continue your bad form
and tense muscles for a while. You'll still break down, and you will
still be fencing badly, you will just get a away with it for a bit
longer.

Zebee
- currently on the sidelines due to overenthusiasm at the gym. was
never damaged this badly by fencing!

--
Zebee Johnstone (zebee@zip.com.au), proud holder of
aus.motorcycles Poser Permit #1.
"Motorcycles are like peanuts... who can stop at just one?"

No, no, I'm sure I read somewhere that Nadi used this trick....

Hmm I don't know how others manage. But i do know that many suffer
from a variety of ailments that can be traced back to lack of good
form, thoughtlessness, carelessness, apathy or just plain lacking any
knowledge.

I don't suffer from much except for perhaps the first... mostly
because I am CONSTANTLY trying to understand how to better interface
with my environment. I don't want to be trying to muscle thru
something when i should be gliding right thru. RSI is often created
this way.

I want whatever effort i put forth into something to be most
efficiently used, but if Im thinking about something that is
uncomfortable or ill aligned and i have to do it because its a french
grip rather than a grip i like... this is a recipe for disaster.
especially if you do it over and over again. Belligerent practice
cements mistakes, perfect practice cements perfection.

SOOOOOOOO....


Essentially i advocate a relaxed MINDFUL approach to what one does in
fencing... some people like myself can be told ALL day by Emile Peck
to relax during footwork and I still wont be able to. But if I listen
to flamenco music i find relaxing to be very easy. Same with grips.
But if the weapon is so stuck to my hand that I cant SHAKE it off then
I know and can feel that logically all i need do now is control the
foil not grip it. 3m adhesive and sticky tape does all the weight
management. It may seem absurd, it probably is. I can live with that.
But i can also live with my newly found riposte which is MUCH faster
than previous.

Oh and as for flicks, something another poster mentioned. My newly
found ultra relaxed grip does wonders for my flick.

Zebee, what weapon are you using that weighs 2 lbs?

PS: I do find that a good glove, preferably deer skin and a wrist wrap
of some kind to stabilize the wrist does wonders for me.

Magni




Zebee Johnstone <zebee@zip.com.au> wrote in message news:<slrnc5f59c.68r.zebee@zeus.zipworld.com.au>.. .
> In rec.sport.fencing on 16 Mar 2004 13:01:42 -0800
> magni <michael_lichtstrom@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > The sticky stuff does help me alot to relax my iron death grip on the
> > foil. I dont feel as if I have to carry the weight of the weapon in my
> > hand. rather i just use the hand as a guide to your chest.
> >
>
> So how do people who don't use it manage? Do they all just grin and
> bear it, or could they, possibly, have discovered that practicing good
> form means your body adapts and you find it easy to relax and hold the
> weapon without tension or feeling you have to carry it.
>
> And when they praactice good form, they find it's both efficient and
> skeletally friendly so they aren't damaging themselves.
>
> It's just barely possible you know.
>
> Zebee
> - who fences a lot with 2lb of sword and no sticky tape.

In rec.sport.fencing on 16 Mar 2004 22:24:41 -0800
magni <michael_lichtstrom@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Zebee, what weapon are you using that weighs 2 lbs?
>

a bit more than that, it's jut on 1kg. a 42" rapier.

I also have a 35" one that weight less, but isn't as nice to use.

I am working on it, I can reliably do one-twos, and I pulled off a
one-two-three once, which amazed me.

But I gave it to my fencing master shortly after I got it, and he did
them easily.

he can also do light-but-clean sabre cuts with it, feint/feint/hit.
Something to aim at I guess....

Zebee

On 16 Mar 2004 17:06:49 GMT, fencerbill@aol.com (Fencerbill) wrote:

>The only way to improve and stretch yourself is to fence against better
>fencers.

I beg to differ: that's merely one way.

One would only fall into picking up others' bad habits if it weren't
for the watchful eye of a good coach.
--
ferret
Best before: see end

Zebee Johnstone wrote:

> In rec.sport.fencing on 16 Mar 2004 13:01:42 -0800
> magni <michael_lichtstrom@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> The sticky stuff does help me alot to relax my iron death grip on the
>> foil. I dont feel as if I have to carry the weight of the weapon in my
>> hand. rather i just use the hand as a guide to your chest.
>>
>
> So how do people who don't use it manage? Do they all just grin and
> bear it, or could they, possibly, have discovered that practicing good
> form means your body adapts and you find it easy to relax and hold the
> weapon without tension or feeling you have to carry it.

You could use that argument against *any* choice of equipment based on
comfort or ease of use, like pistol grips vs. french grips, or varying
shapes of the grips, etc. I do agree that good technique will ultimately
overcome a lot, and the fencers with the best technique may not "need" to
consider things like this in choosing their equipment. I'd say, though,
that there are two problems with that view:

1) It's not possible to be perfect instantly, and during the learning
process, artificial aids can be helpful in supporting the correct habits.
If magni's sticky tape helps him hold the grip more lightly, that will
reinforce the habit of holding the grip lightly. Maybe one day he won't
need the tape.

2) It's OK to pick your battles. I don't believe magni was advocating sticky
tape for all fencers, just pointing out that it worked for *him*. Maybe
achieving perfect non-sticky-taped grip control isn't at the top of his
list right now. Right now, it seems to be working for him to achieve what
he *does* want to work on, which is a lighter grip. So if he is achieving
what he wants, who cares whether he uses an "artificial" way of achieving
it? (Within the rules, of course!)

Personally, I wouldn't care to use sticky tape on my grips because the idea
of the stickiness seems kind of icky - I would think it would gather
fuzzies and dirt. But since (in foil) I've also grappled with the
death-grip issue, I see it as a valid way of approaching the problem. What
*I* ended up doing was changing the grips on my foils to a slightly
different style, and concentrating on keeping a loose hand. Could I have
gotten a looser hand without changing the grips? Maybe, but it was more
comfortable to find grips that fit better, and it made me happier while I
fenced. Ultimately, "happy while I fence" is what matters to me.

Anyway, I don't think it's a silly idea, and maybe it will help someone
else.

Cheers,
Holly

A lot of my troubles are due to the fact that I lock my arm. This makes it
harder to take parries and I lose a lot of attack-counterattacks(sabre).

To overcome this I have been doing a very small oscillation of the blade. This
keeps me from tightening up.

Bill Hall

I don't know what form of rapier trainning you do but, Ive never heard of
anything like a 1-2-3 with a 40 inch 1kg rapier. Italian maybe, nothing
spanish... maybe french smallsword. I wonder if this can be trully
effective, however it is good for trainning the precision. But I doubt of
the form (in modern fencing terms for the parry) parrying from 6 to 4 then
back 6 then back 4 with a rapier is a bit slower then a lunge, I think
someone is to likely to get in a stop-thrust doing a 1-2-3 since the rapier
is intended to be used in single time, however it could be good against
lighter weapon like the smallsword.

"Zebee Johnstone" <zebee@zip.com.au> a écrit dans le message de
news:slrnc5ftca.e15.zebee@zeus.zipworld.com.au...
> In rec.sport.fencing on 16 Mar 2004 22:24:41 -0800
> magni <michael_lichtstrom@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Zebee, what weapon are you using that weighs 2 lbs?
> >
>
> a bit more than that, it's jut on 1kg. a 42" rapier.
>
> I also have a 35" one that weight less, but isn't as nice to use.
>
> I am working on it, I can reliably do one-twos, and I pulled off a
> one-two-three once, which amazed me.
>
> But I gave it to my fencing master shortly after I got it, and he did
> them easily.
>
> he can also do light-but-clean sabre cuts with it, feint/feint/hit.
> Something to aim at I guess....
>
> Zebee

In rec.sport.fencing on Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:42:47 -0500
Trim Plus Expert <trimplus@bellnet.ca> wrote:
> I don't know what form of rapier trainning you do but, Ive never heard of
> anything like a 1-2-3 with a 40 inch 1kg rapier. Italian maybe, nothing
> spanish... maybe french smallsword. I wonder if this can be trully

It was "can I do it?". And I could and it worked. It was against
someone using a very much lighter weapon, a fibreglass training sword.

> effective, however it is good for trainning the precision. But I doubt of
> the form (in modern fencing terms for the parry) parrying from 6 to 4 then
> back 6 then back 4 with a rapier is a bit slower then a lunge, I think

It can be done. I've seen it done, even with a heavy weapon. One thing
using a lot of different size and weight gear against a lot of different
opponents has taught me is that you can't take anything for granted.

> someone is to likely to get in a stop-thrust doing a 1-2-3 since the rapier
> is intended to be used in single time, however it could be good against
> lighter weapon like the smallsword.

Don't be so sure about "single time". It's a thing bandied about by
some people into rapier re-creation, but I disagree. No rapier master
ever suggested you attack without being *sure* you have defended.
Mostly they expect you to use footwork as a major part of the defence,
but you must always have the blade controlled before you attack. As the
Italians say, the difference between single and dual time in some moves
is a matter of intent and not discernable except to the very
experienced.

I am not sure stop thrusts are that useful when you can't expect your
opponent to stop just cos they've been touched.

Zebee

Zebee Johnstone wrote:

>I am not sure stop thrusts are that useful when you can't expect your
>opponent to stop just cos they've been touched.
>
>Zebee
>
>

lol. That's what the time-outs on the lights are for, silly!

--
Amy and Joseph Kormann

"Zebee Johnstone" <zebee@zip.com.au> a écrit dans le message de
news:slrnc5h7t0.pe3.zebee@zeus.zipworld.com.au...
> In rec.sport.fencing on Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:42:47 -0500
> Trim Plus Expert <trimplus@bellnet.ca> wrote:
> > I don't know what form of rapier trainning you do but, Ive never heard
of
> > anything like a 1-2-3 with a 40 inch 1kg rapier. Italian maybe, nothing
> > spanish... maybe french smallsword. I wonder if this can be trully
>
> It was "can I do it?". And I could and it worked. It was against
> someone using a very much lighter weapon, a fibreglass training sword.
>
> > effective, however it is good for trainning the precision. But I doubt
of
> > the form (in modern fencing terms for the parry) parrying from 6 to 4
then
> > back 6 then back 4 with a rapier is a bit slower then a lunge, I think
>
> It can be done. I've seen it done, even with a heavy weapon. One thing
> using a lot of different size and weight gear against a lot of different
> opponents has taught me is that you can't take anything for granted.

I never take anything for granted however there are some opportunity that
could be easilly calculated this is the base of any form of martial art, I
could do an overhead parry if you try to hit me on outside high line and it
could work however it would be better to parry 4.


> > someone is to likely to get in a stop-thrust doing a 1-2-3 since the
rapier
> > is intended to be used in single time, however it could be good against
> > lighter weapon like the smallsword.
>
> Don't be so sure about "single time". It's a thing bandied about by
> some people into rapier re-creation, but I disagree. No rapier master
> ever suggested you attack without being *sure* you have defended.
> Mostly they expect you to use footwork as a major part of the defence,
> but you must always have the blade controlled before you attack. As the
> Italians say, the difference between single and dual time in some moves
> is a matter of intent and not discernable except to the very
> experienced.

timing in fencing is always a matter of intend, and fencing in single time
doesnt mean not controlling the blade of the opponnent.

> I am not sure stop thrusts are that useful when you can't expect your
> opponent to stop just cos they've been touched.

When you use a stop-thrust is that you intend footwork as a defence, or if
you are fencing in modern competition the light as a defence. However i dont
have to use the light as a defence since I dont get hit at all ( a polland
teaching in foil)


>
> Zebee

trebuchet30303@yahoo.com (William Marshal) wrote in message news:<dc7987e.0403162136.6b1bf1af@posting.google.c om>...
> No, no, I'm sure I read somewhere that Nadi used this trick....

Funny you should mention that. I've actually seen and of course read
nadi's manifesto on the brilliancies of the italian at the expense of
then french grip. Disarming and all thatjazz.

My whole intent is to approximate the function of the italian grip
using a visconti small.

Its a pain in the ass to do prime with nadi's italian grip, and unless
the guard is mounted obliquely vis a vis the flat of the blade the
flick is nigh unto impossible. I find that cut overs are actually
easier and with better tip control with nadi's grip. All told the
italian weapon really is superior to the french grip and in most
respects to visconti, with the exception of wide actions like
flicking. but for straight on fencing the italian grip really is the
****.

So i compromised. i bandage my wrist and use stickytapes and spray
adhesives to give me a similar locked in feeling that the rings on a
nadi style grip would give. But I dont have the leather strap holding
the end of the visconti to my forearm. So instead of my forearm
carrying the weight of the foil its the wrist.

Who knows? Now that the FIE has the new anti flick legislation mayhaps
well see a renaissance of that classic weapon. Its not so far fetched.
Edoardo Mangiarotti and sons, creators of the new manigiarotti tip,
have a current salle which still teaches and mandates the old nadi
style grip. Mangiarotti and Nadi were contemporaries.

Magni.