How aggressive should an epee fencer be???

[Hitman]

On the fencing group in Yahoo I am being dogged out by a guy who feels I am too aggressive because I like to go for a toe tag(epee) and don't mind if my opponent ends up with a sore toe. I don't go for it to try to injure the guy, just get him off guard.

Here is what he said to me:
"I know what the toe touch is for, and I know its application; I know its
effects on an opponent. You say you're trying to induce a limp to disadvantage
your opponent, and that is against the spirit of the game, period. Also, you
say that if it hurts, the target area should be changed. I disagree: if it
hurts, then you should learn to control yourself a little better.

I think you should perhaps do some thinking on what this sport is all about.
Trying to injure someone on the strip will earn you a black card, at best.
Being heavy-handed and callous about hurting other people will earn you a lack
of training partners."

What do you think? Here is the group URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fencing if your interested.
Thanks,
Chris

[attila]

Hi

Sounds like a whiner to me. I hate those guys with the "spirit of the game" defence. Just where is the "spirit of the game" bylaws written down? I gotta get a copy of that one.

[d8m2k]

Chris,
I used to fence this guy that had the same thought. He used the toe touch as a suprise move, not to intentionally hurt. His touch involved him jabbing/punching at the toe, usually causing great pain to most people he fenced. He never understood why I would never fence him in practice. Personally, as a competitor, I did not want to risk injury against him (he took out my team-mate for a month). And in tournaments I always killed him.

Many top level fencers hit hard, and are aggressive. Hitting hard happens. People have to deal with it. Hitting intentionally hard to inure your opponent is against the rules, although it happens as well.

Routinely hurting people is just a sign of poor body control.

You may think of yourself as aggressive, and a hard hitter, others may think of you as a hack who just likes to hurt people.

It's a fuzzy line, and, as is the case in fencing, the only answer is the result.

[This message has been edited by d8m2k (edited 04-06-2001).]

[This message has been edited by d8m2k (edited 04-06-2001).]

[Moonitic]

Tell him that knitting isn't painful, if he wants to try that. Even a beautiful touch by an A rated fencer can hurt like crazy. Believe me, I've been on the receiving end of such touches.
Seriously, hello! Swords were originally meant to KILL people, not to mention to hurt them.

To answer your question: Be as aggressive as you need to be to get the touch & keep the opponent from getting one. Remember the cardinal rule: Don't Get Hit!

[mango fever]

i agree with attila, in epee the toe is a legitmate target, so he should try to understand, unless you're like totally smashing his toe. On the other hand, i have met people who fence one weapon, but their target is from another weapon and they get an attitude about it if you remind them that the HEAD is not a valid target in foil (for example), however (again), we've all hit off-target once in a while. the difference between a really good fencer and a really bad fencer is both in their attitude about fencing, apoligizing to their opponent for excessive force, and being able to correct their bad fencing and especially the off targets. Off targets is a symptom of sloppy fencing, and probably due to fatigue. Mental or muscle fatigue. Maybe a short rest or break from fencing would help out.

[Bugaboo]

If a fencer doesn't want his toe to be hit, then he needs to get that toe out of the way. It's that simple.

Chances are that he's missing a good counter-attack opportunity, too. After all, you don't exactly wave your toe at arm's length to be touched - it takes some effort to get down to that target zone.

And if a toe-tagger misses regularly, he's going to be breaking a lot of weapon tips anyway.


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[Matt_Bailey]

Indeed, the quick jab to the foot has been known, and practiced, as long as we have a continuing record of Western swordsmanship. Sutor depicts it most beautifully.

Considering some of the tactics used in modern fence, bruising someone's toseys would be the LAST thing I'd mention as a "corruptor of the spirit" of the game.

[Hitman]

Thanks for the input. I want to be agressive because I think you have to be to a degree. The guy is trying to make me out to be a monster. I have no intention of hurting anyone but he doesn't seem to see that. I expect to give a hard hit now and then and I'm sure I'll have to take a fewbut to me that is just the way it goes. I like the toe tag but I promise I wont try to break your toe.

[epeemancer]

Aggressive epee is good. It keeps the other guy on his toes. (if you didn't break them, j/k) The effects of to much aggression can make you out to a monster even to your friends. Then they won't want to fence you! Even worse they'll get a better fencer out of there team and have him beat the crap out of you on the piste. Seriously though, aggressive is good and I've put bruses on all my friends that dare to fence me. Of course, then they start to not want to fence so that's probably a bad thing. Personally I think fencing has sofened down a lot. The original spirit of the game was to kill the other guy so if he's complaining about a little bruse on the toe he needs to toughen up and get over it.

[damianip]

I don't know what the problem is. If this guy doesn't like getting hit in the toe, then he should learn to move or stop on the attack.

The only "aggressive" épée which irks me comes in two flavors:

1) Violent corps a corps on fleches.

2) Fencers who hit hard and late (clearly a tempo behind) after they've been touched.

It's fencing, it's épée: go back to foil where the blade is lighter, and it doesn't hurt so much.


Paolo

[space_cadet]

Attacks to the toe does not mean you are more aggressive. It's a valid target area and is one of the attacks epee fencers are drilled on during lessons.

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Cadet à Space

[saberwillie]

that guy needs to find out if he wants to win . This is a sport like any other and it can hurt sometimes. Thats just part of the game and toe shots are valid I use them all the time. If he does not like it tell him to get off the strip. If you want to win you have to be aggressive, be be aggressive!

[Hitman]

Hey Paolo, space_cadet and saberwillie, I think you hit it on the head. I never told the guy i was out to injure someone. I just said that it happens probably a bit easier in epee(IMO) and that if I do hit someone a bit hard I'm not going to worry over it. Same if I get tagged hard. It happens. I told those guy in that group they could keep their kindergarten group. At least here you guys all seem to be a bit more professional about how you post. I can take critisizm but hey, the other guy called me "simian". My knuckles don't drag the ground. I have another post about club info, please look.
Chris

[John]

hummmmm...a toe touch...to hurt someone??? Er....ok. Think about it, other than your head, your toes are one of the most protected parts of the body. Also, as an aside, if you hit the touch enough to hurt you are doing it very wrong. If I wanted to hurt someone (which is against the spirt of fencing imho and would never do) I would never pick the toe when there are so many other places like the knee cap, shin, bicep, etc.

Having a good toe touch in epee is like have a great high tight curve in baseball. It can demoralize, fluster, intimidate, cause "happy feet" which make your opponent off balance and out of distance, etc. Like you, as a general rule I never use the toe touch as a move "to get points" but rather as a move that creates openings for future points.

[swordsen]

Interesting. I've never had anyone complain about toe shots before. On the other hand I have had a few people get downright hostile about a good stiff jab to the mask.

[MikeHarm]

I'm surprised they don't sell steel toed fencing shoes for Epeeists myself. Seems like that would fix the problem right there. :-)

Mike

[Gav]

What's all this. Lok I'vebeen doing epee for years. Toe is a valid target.

If you are being hit regularly and hard think about what is going wrong. Is it your stance? Is it your foowork? Is it both or are you not defending your target suficiently? Think about these - not whether you are being hit too hard. I regularly come away with bruises in epee - it's par for the course.

If this guy is hitting you in the toe a lot use it to your advantage and pick the annoying guy off, as he's trying for your toe.

[mango fever]

according to some people, epee is supposed to be slightly less agressive than sabre and more aggressive than foil [please don't debate this, it's not a real issue, it's a non-issue, it'S.....moot!] that is in order to be in keeping with the tradition of fencing's general non-written rules. It's like: saber fencers should have short goatees and mustashes, epeeists should be tall, and foiliest should look the best , know the most and be generally the absolute smartest. Next in line of smarter are the epeeists, and so on to the saberists. Anyone who can fence two weapons should either be agressively tall, handsome and smart, OR, alternately, full figured, intelligent and mid-height. ARE THERE ANY QUESTIONS????

[Peach]

If I grow a goatee and moustache my husband will be seriously perturbed.

[mango fever]

not if he grows one too, then you could be twins.

[This message has been edited by mango fever (edited 04-10-2001).]