How aggressive should an epee fencer be???

[space_cadet]

Originally posted by mango fever:
...Anyone who can fence two weapons should either be agressively tall, handsome and smart, OR, alternately, full figured, intelligent and mid-height. ARE THERE ANY QUESTIONS????

What are your height, weight, and dimensions?


------------------
Cadet à Space

[mango fever]

i really don't know, it all depends on what's going on, but i know one thing: i live in the same dimension as everyone else: the dimension of time and space: we are here, so far.

[HilandDoug]

My old roommate in college (we were on the team together) used to tell me he would hit his opponent hard in the mask as an intimidating tactic. He felt if he could jam their neck and make them see stars, it would put them on their heels a bit. I never asked him why he didn't go for the toe. Our alumni meet is April 21, so if he's there, I'll ask him. He caught some flak for denting a few masks, I remember.

[damianip]

Hey Hitman,

I just went over to the yahoo group you had linked to. You're much better off over here.

I wonder who the guy from FAP fences with. He must not ever have fenced any of the other Philly division épéeists I've run into: because a bruise is inevitable with any of them (or almost any other épéeist I've faced). Maybe I just bruise easily.

What a bunch of babies.

Quoting from that group:

As far as I'm concerned, if you cannot beat an opponent without bruising him,
then you haven't fenced him, you've merely beaten him up. Not the same thing.
Are you a fencer or a bully? Do you have control of your body or not? Are you a
gentleman or an ape?

Wow! I'm surprised you stayed with the discussion thread as long as you did.

I'll have to avoid FAP if that's their attitude.


Paolo

[epeemancer]

Man!! If that's what they feel about fencing give me an epee in one hand and a banana in the other! In all other sports that involve contact of any kind your bound to get some sort of bruseing. It's something that everyone has to deal with. If your getting hurt fencing put on some more padding (or learn how to parry). I would rather see an aggressive match then one where someone complains that there the other guy hurt him with a well placed toe touch. This would be a little like the quarter back of some football game telling the defencive line to "Take it easy, when you tackle me it hurts." :_( You are not an ape by any means if you put bruses on the other guy, you are a fencer who makes a ligitimate attack. Becides, some people burse easier then others so the above statment, from the other discussion line, is relative anyway.

[Peach]

Originally posted by damianip:
Hey Hitman,
I'll have to avoid FAP if that's their attitude.
Paolo

Gee, that's a bit much. Judge an entire club and publicly announce you're going to avoid it on the basis of somebody's posting on a board somewhere else? FAP is a very large club with a wide diversity of members, and individuals are certainly entitled to their opinions (right or wrong) even when they pay membership fees. Besides which, I suspect the person posting is a sabre fencer, not an epeeist, and brutal fencing in sabre is a different matter--it is simply not necessary to hit your opponent that hard.




[This message has been edited by Peach (edited 04-12-2001).]

[damianip]

Peach,

I probably should have included more info from this person's quote.

Here are another couple lines from the post:

Your attitude is exactly the thing I try to remove from my students. You are
what will bring the sport down. You should be ashamed of yourself... "dude."
You would not last long in my school.

SJS, Instructor, Fencing Academy of Philadelphia

My point being that this person is speaking for the entire club as an instructor. I know FAP is a very big club, but if this is what's being "instructed" then I suspect that this attitude would be more more pervasive than if it were just another member fencer expousing this philosophy.

Whether or not this person is really an instructor at FAP may be debatable, but if he or she is, then I may find myself at "philosophical odds" with this club.

I think that if you follow the link Hitman put up and browse the discussion, you'll see what I'm saying. I don't think that my opinion and philosophy is better or more "correct". I simply don't subscribe to this view of épée, instruction or fencing as a sport.

I find it hard to believe that this person fences épée and has this philosophy. They must come away from many encounters covered with bruises and filled with anger.

Paolo

[Peach]

Paolo - as I said, if it's the person I think it is, he fences sabre, not epee. And whether or not it is, I think the number of coaches and instructors at FAP is around 10 and they use the same teaching methods but may continue to be independent in their opinions about things. And my point remains unchanged--as a member of FAP myself I know he doesn't speak for me, so you're making a mistake if you judge an entire club on the basis of one person's opinions. Even if the person represents himself as speaking for the club - only Mark Masters, the owner, can speak for the club as a whole.

I checked with a friend of mine (who, by the way, is an epee fencer at FAP and a former coach there) and he agreed with what I said - In sabre, if you are hurt, your opponent is either winding up, using his shoulder to cut, or in too close. In epee, if you are hurt, you were going the wrong direction.

When he was at Coaches College, he was asked if he would train students to go for the head shot. "No," he said, "But if it's there I would tell them to go for it." "Correct," said the instructors. And I know he trains with toe touch fairly frequently.

Now you have the opinions of two other instructors at FAP (both my friend and I now just train there because our coaching time is spent at the school where we teach, but we use FAP's methods and philosophy). But we do not pretend to speak for the club, and I would appreciate if you didn't assume that either <grin>.

[damianip]

Peach,

Thanks for the additional info. I guess I'll cut FAP a break ;~)

Paolo

[Stryder]

Wow, I never thought of hitting the mask as cruel.
As a foil fencer my first experience with epee was that I didn't hit hard enough. So I had to either hit extra hard to ensure that I would get a light, (this got me no new friends) or I could hit the mask. It was rigid so I didn't have to hit it too hard to get a light. And no one got hurt.
It is a little annoying but I thought it was the nicest thing to do.
Since then I have learned to hit the body without too much bruising, but all this talk about people getting mad about mask shots confuses me.
It's target area! I get point for hitting you in that mask!
If you don't like to get hit in the mask we have a place for you in the more evolved world of Foil.

I usually only apologize when I hit people in places that I am not supposed to. Or at times when I am not supposed to. Like an unsuccessful counter-attack.

[Hitman]

I'm just glad we all seem to agree that it's okay to be aggressive. I never indicated to him I was out to injure someone so as far as he goes, I'm not impressed. Peach, does he wear a parka and football pads when he fences? j/k I don't mind a bruise here and there nor do I mind getting hit hard, as long as it is fair play and their not just trying to play 3 musketeers on the strip. I will, however, continue to go for toe shots as it is my favorite when done right. I don't recal ever doing it more than once per bout but that should be all it takes(IMHO). I mainly do this for fun but I hope to be good enough to compete down the road so I just want to get along with folks and have fun. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to put some more Absorbine Jr on my big toe.

Chris

[mmatsen]

OK, I'll take the side of the broken-toe dude, because, jeez, someone has to.

If there's a touch in epee which is hard enough to cause injury, the fault is probably equally attributable to both fencers. The defender kept bad distance, but the attacker either 1)misread that distance and pushed too far too fast or 2)is really drilling the touch to cause pain and thus intimidate the opponent physically. The former is going to happen now and then, by the nature of the game. The latter, besides not being too classy, should be cardable.

Basically, I'm having trouble buying a toe-touch injury as being in the first category. It's an immobile target, and if you can't control the velocity and force you hit it with, you need to go back to really basic blade work (against the wall or floor). The basic toe-touch, from my experience (and I've eaten plenty), comes from a fair distance, after a false attack to the hand. It's approximately the same distance, and about as light and subtle.

(I do wonder, though, if the attacker is so uncontrolled that they're really -thunking- the floor (or foor), why the complaining defender isn't just making the easy counterattack. If toe-touches are -common-, the defender has some of his own issues to work out.)

Yeah, yeah, I'm either an uptight classicist or a wimp. Make with the flaming if you like.

MM

[Peach]

I dunno. When I talk to epee fencers (not just from my club) they talk about "mask shots" as if they can be over the line. I have no idea why. Maybe because they can damage the neck? Anybody know?

I don't like getting hit hard on the mask but that's just because I'm going deaf already and it's painful to have that loud sound, especially when it's followed by increased deadness of hearing. During drill I wear a coach's mask cover so that I don't go crazy and start chopping my drill partners into little bits.

[foiled again]

I have no problem with mask and toe shots. I use the former at times, and if it lands harder than intended (opponent on the way in) then I apologize & ask if they are ok. I don't use the latter much since I'm worried about being too exposed. I do go to the leg though which can hurt more than the toe shots I receive. I'm not out to hurt anyone but I do intend to use the entire target available to avoid predictability. I have bruises every week and have no problem with them as long as there is no malicious intent.

fa

[This message has been edited by foiled again (edited 04-12-2001).]

[thebigriddle]

Attack, attack, attack and never stop attacking. If he attacks, attack him back.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Hitman:
Thanks for the input. I want to be agressive because I think you have to be to a degree. The guy is trying to make me out to be a monster. I have no intention of hurting anyone but he doesn't seem to see that. I expect to give a hard hit now and then and I'm sure I'll have to take a fewbut to me that is just the way it goes. I like the toe tag but I promise I wont try to break your toe.

Once there was a time, when people liked to make their touches as light as they could!
No offense, Chris, but if you break my toe, I won't really care whether you wanted to, or not.

OTOH, after twenty-odd years of fencing, I tend to feel that, if I hit my opponent hard, it's my fault; it they hit me hard, it's my fault!

However, there ar eseveral reasons that people hit hard:

A: Epee is "supposed to be rough" (NOT!!!) and noone wants to be the whiner, so they don't tell the person.

B: The guy is a goon, so they don't think it will help to tell him he's hitting too hard.
(which is often the case.)

C: the fencer has a coach who tells them to hit hard (Coach's reasoning may/may not be specified - it's always bad...)

D. The person is a beginner who has the epee in a death-grip.

Unfortunately, only the last can be really be rectified, but it is nonetheless, a painfully slow process. (pun intended.)

Chris, when you go for the toe tag, (or most any touch), you should make sure you don't lock your elbow, and HOLD the handle; don't grip it - the fingers should extend, leaving space between the handle, and the palm of your hand; this increases your reach 1/2 inch or more, and also gives a little cushion; with the touch, your hand can compress a little, before the handle comes back into contact with the heel of your hand, and delivers the full force. This little amount of time allows the blade to start bending before the forces get so high, and also lets you feel the touch a little sooner; you can't help but react, and relax sooner.

Of course, if you get the point caught in the laces, or actually down the ankle, inside the shoe, that's going to hurt, but it's a little unusual, and pretty hard to do on purpose.

Remember, being a 'hard hitter' is just another way of saying "I have bad distance."

Know your Game.

Fence On!


[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 04-21-2001).]

[Chris]

Originally posted by mango fever:
... It's like: saber fencers should have short goatees and mustashes, epeeists should be tall, and foiliest should look the best , know the most and be generally the absolute smartest. Next in line of smarter are the epeeists, and so on to the saberists. Anyone who can fence two weapons should either be agressively tall, handsome and smart, OR, alternately, full figured, intelligent and mid-height. ARE THERE ANY QUESTIONS????

And if I fence all three?
I'm not that good, but not that bad either!

It's all good!

Know your Game!

Fence On!

[damianip]

I still maintain that if you get hit hard on the foot, you've got much bigger problems than an aggressive opponent.

A toe touch is usually a low percentage shot. Unless you've been "generous" with your distance, the touch is going to come fast, and since toes aren't too cushioned (even my toes don't have much fat on them), it could hurt.

I have fenced some very skilled epeeists who have delivered some beautifully delicate touches to the foot, but usually they are the exception rather than the rule.

If the toe is hurting, keep it out of the way.

As far as head touches go, I use them a lot against "leaners" and those who fleche head first. My son has this habit and it's a hard one to break. The head is a target. Keep it out of the way.

If one thinks mask shots are over the line, they should take up another weapon. If I keep my unarmed hand over my torso, and it gets hit, is that over the line? No, I'm stupid and have to learn to keep that hand out of the way.

For the most part, no one is trying to hurt anyone, but it IS supposed to simulate a real encounter and therefore, all target areas are valid (even the apparently unpopular ones of foot, mask and "loins").

Believe me, I'm no brute. With my dull skills, I could probably bring home the "Bruise" award on any given night.

Remember this?

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~dam...s/epee_arm.jpg

I have learned to keep my distance better since then and this happens less and less. It was a painful lesson, but rather than knock those who bruised me, I accept it as a lesson and am actually grateful.

Paolo

[arcon]

[ 10-19-2001: Message edited by: arcon ]

[arcon]

Bigriddle......seriously what kind of advise
is that?........attack attack attack and if he attacks attack him back.......
If your just being funny then fine.....but if your trying to give intelligent advise please try again............Ive heard through the grapevine a few questionable things about your approach to coaching.
............................arcon