Flat feet

There's a beginner in our club who has a bad case of flat feet. The problem is
that his front knee always collapses inwards, even when his foot is pointing
dead ahead. As a result, he ends up overturning. Other than that, he is quite
good; he picks up stuff very quickly and knocks seven bells out of most of the
other beginners.

Does anybody out there know a way to get around this? I've heard of
suppinator insoles, but don't know where they are sold.

P. Goudochnikov wrote:

> There's a beginner in our club who has a bad case of flat feet. The
> problem is that his front knee always collapses inwards, even when his
> foot is pointing dead ahead.

I don't have flat feet, but I do have a problem with my front knee
collapsing inwards - it's because of the angle of my lower leg bone
attaching to my knee. I don't have a problem with turning, though, because
through a lot of practice, I learned to compensate for it (basically,
over-compensating in the opposite direction) and now I don't even think
about it, but my footwork and lunges are straight.

I'd suggest that he spends time doing advances and retreats *while looking
at his feet* to visually correct for his tendency to turn inward; also
practicing footwork on a painted line, and sometimes with eyes closed (to
encourage compensating for the turning tendency without having to use
visual cues).

It may take a while, but it's certainly feasible to adjust to.

--Holly

In rec.sport.fencing on Sat, 31 Jan 2004 16:33:29 GMT
P. Goudochnikov <EAR9PG@leeds.ac.uk> wrote:
> There's a beginner in our club who has a bad case of flat feet. The problem is
> that his front knee always collapses inwards, even when his foot is pointing
> dead ahead. As a result, he ends up overturning. Other than that, he is quite
> good; he picks up stuff very quickly and knocks seven bells out of most of the
> other beginners.

I'm surprised it's a foot problem. It's perfectly possible, even natural
for the knee to turn in with the toe straight, as it spends most of it's
time in that relation to the hip.

I doubt it's the feet, I think it's a combination of lack of practice,
and not having got the feel of working out where bits of his body are
yet.

My feet are pretty flat, and it did take me a while to understand this
knee thing, but I've pretty much got it these days.

Takes some folk more than others is all, it might take him much longer
than other people.

If it looks like the flat feet are the problem, then orthotic supporting
insoles are a possible solution. Ask your pharmacist, at least in
Austrlaia they sell them.

Zebee

I don't have flat feet, but did have my front foot's arch fall. As a result I overcompensated and caused serious knee problems that I had to surgically fix. Before I took the surgery route, I tried taping my ankles and finally got custom arch supports for my feet. Not only did my knee come back to where it belonged by my balance was significantly improved.

I also teach beginning fencers and have noticed that although at first it is just getting used to the position, people with fallen arches or no arches often have problems keeping a good guard and moving effectively as they swing the front toe in to compensate for the lack of arch which supports balance. Point control also improves dramatically. On the flip side, people who do not practice don't usually have problems with in-toeing they just let the knee come over. It's the one's who in-toe and the knee comes over that should be watched and should look into arch supports.

That's just my observations.
"P. Goudochnikov" <EAR9PG@leeds.ac.uk> wrote in message news:bvglcp$7hv$1@iss-nntp.leeds.ac.uk...
There's a beginner in our club who has a bad case of flat feet. The problem is
that his front knee always collapses inwards, even when his foot is pointing
dead ahead. As a result, he ends up overturning. Other than that, he is quite
good; he picks up stuff very quickly and knocks seven bells out of most of the
other beginners.

Does anybody out there know a way to get around this? I've heard of
suppinator insoles, but don't know where they are sold.

EAR9PG@leeds.ac.uk (P. Goudochnikov) nattered on
thusnews:bvglcp$7hv$1@iss-nntp.leeds.ac.uk:

> There's a beginner in our club who has a bad case of flat feet. The
> problem is that his front knee always collapses inwards, even when his
> foot is pointing dead ahead. As a result, he ends up overturning.
> Other than that, he is quite good; he picks up stuff very quickly and
> knocks seven bells out of most of the other beginners.

I used to have a lot of problem with the collapsing front knee. The
solution for me (and I stress the "for me") was a great deal of careful
technical practice and some weight training to get my legs "used to" doing
it properly.

EAR9PG@leeds.ac.uk (P. Goudochnikov) wrote in message news:<bvglcp$7hv$1@iss-nntp.leeds.ac.uk>...
> There's a beginner in our club who has a bad case of flat feet. The problem is
> that his front knee always collapses inwards, even when his foot is pointing
> dead ahead. As a result, he ends up overturning. Other than that, he is quite
> good; he picks up stuff very quickly and knocks seven bells out of most of the
> other beginners.
>
> Does anybody out there know a way to get around this? I've heard of
> suppinator insoles, but don't know where they are sold.

Get your fencer to a podiatrist right away!!! He or she needs to get
custom arch supports. Whatever the cost, it is worth it. Otherwise,
your fencer is risking lifelong injuries. Take it from a 57 year old
fencer with flat feet (do you want syrup with those pancakes?) My
knees are a mess (no ACL, damaged PCL) but I can still fence because
of custom arch supports and an expensive knee brace. If your fencer
gets the arch supports, he/she may avoid needing the knee brace.

hassul@csulb.edu (hassul) wrote in message news:<9d8926b3.0402020858.f425253@posting.google.c om>...
> EAR9PG@leeds.ac.uk (P. Goudochnikov) wrote in message news:<bvglcp$7hv$1@iss-nntp.leeds.ac.uk>...
> > There's a beginner in our club who has a bad case of flat feet. The problem is
> > that his front knee always collapses inwards, even when his foot is pointing
> > dead ahead. As a result, he ends up overturning. Other than that, he is quite
> > good; he picks up stuff very quickly and knocks seven bells out of most of the
> > other beginners.
> >
> > Does anybody out there know a way to get around this? I've heard of
> > suppinator insoles, but don't know where they are sold.
>
> Get your fencer to a podiatrist right away!!! He or she needs to get
> custom arch supports. Whatever the cost, it is worth it. Otherwise,
> your fencer is risking lifelong injuries. Take it from a 57 year old
> fencer with flat feet (do you want syrup with those pancakes?) My
> knees are a mess (no ACL, damaged PCL) but I can still fence because
> of custom arch supports and an expensive knee brace. If your fencer
> gets the arch supports, he/she may avoid needing the knee brace.

I've often wondered if this whole knock kneed thing is mostly peculiar
to caucasians. I've not noticed many Asians with this problem. Most of
the Asians I know are in martial arts of some kind and so probably are
more aware of their bodies than the average couch potato here in the
States.

I've often said that fencers need to stretch their hams ang glutes and
quads much more than they do. I think that people in general are so
tight that they become pigeon toed or duckfooted as this becomes
comfortable for them.

I ve also noticed recently that many good fencers, rather than trying
to keep both knees out over the little toe.. the rear knee tends to
cave in. ike they've modified the on guard position to something a
bit more 'athletic' looking. I dont know how else to describe it but
the rear foot is definitely not at a right angle from the front one...
more like 50 degrees or something.

Just musings...

Magnobitsky!!

magni wrote:

> I ve also noticed recently that many good fencers, rather than trying
> to keep both knees out over the little toe.. the rear knee tends to
> cave in. ike they've modified the on guard position to something a
> bit more 'athletic' looking. I dont know how else to describe it but
> the rear foot is definitely not at a right angle from the front one...
> more like 50 degrees or something.

I've noticed that as well (and my own stance is similar to what you
describe). I would say that the "traditional" stance is a useful starting
point, but as the fencer becomes more skilled (typically over a period of
years, not months) he will naturally modify this basic stance to something
that is most effective for his own body and style.

I agree that it's crucial to have that "body awareness." It has helped me a
lot, as I've adjusted (and continue to adjust) my form, to be able to feel
how changes in some part of my posture affects my movement overall.

--Holly

"Holly E. Ordway" <hollyOUTordway@WITHverizon.THISnet> a écrit dans le
message de news:rMbUb.4227$EH5.2545@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
> magni wrote:
>
> > I ve also noticed recently that many good fencers, rather than trying
> > to keep both knees out over the little toe.. the rear knee tends to
> > cave in. ike they've modified the on guard position to something a
> > bit more 'athletic' looking. I dont know how else to describe it but
> > the rear foot is definitely not at a right angle from the front one...
> > more like 50 degrees or something.
>
> I've noticed that as well (and my own stance is similar to what you
> describe). I would say that the "traditional" stance is a useful starting
> point, but as the fencer becomes more skilled (typically over a period of
> years, not months) he will naturally modify this basic stance to something
> that is most effective for his own body and style.
>
> I agree that it's crucial to have that "body awareness." It has helped me
a
> lot, as I've adjusted (and continue to adjust) my form, to be able to feel
> how changes in some part of my posture affects my movement overall.
>
> --Holly

We tend to see this modification more and more, as fencing grow more
agressive on offence and less defensive. Lots of fencer tend to have their
weight 60 % on the front leg and 40 % on the rear one. Help a lot for
fleching, however for someone like me that do lots of prise de fer. It is
more usefull to keep my position more classical. Depend much on style and
tactics.

Agleos

Thanks for the advice, guys.

Concerning the stance, I teach beginners to point the front foot
slightly forwards from the start. There is less strain on the hamstrings,
so it's easier to keep the front foot pointing forwards. Also, that way they
are less likely to lunge off the toe.