Fleche Right of Way

I would just like a collective opinion on the subject of the Fleche right of
way. I'm trying to avoid quibbling with club mates over misinterpreted rules
and don't want to press the point if I'm wrong. Please don't lecture me on
how they're trying to kill the fleche, or that the fleche should only be
used for short distances. That could be the subject of another thread. I'm
only interested in a general consensus on the correct interpretation of the
rules.

For reference:

t.7 the attack is the initial offensive action made by extending the arm
and continuously threatening the opponent's target, preceding the launching
of the lunge or fleche.

This is the rule (Fencing Rules 2002 USFA) that we've "discussed" heatedly
for the last couple of years:

t.56 7) Continuous steps forward, with the legs crossing one another,
constitute a preparation and on this preparation any simple attack has
priority.

Does this rule even address the fleche? I've always assumed it was
addressing a cross-step, then lunge?

More specifically:
Assuming that the fleche is correctly launched with the only response of the
opponent being essentially a simple counter-attack. At what point does the
attacker (the individual launching the fleche) lose right-of-way? At what
point is a stop-thrust considered in time?

My club-mate vociferously contends that as soon as the legs are crossed, the
flecher is open to a stop-thrust which would be considered in time. So
anything from the point of launching the fleche, crossing the legs, and the
rear foot landing is preparation.

I hold that right-of-way is held until the rear foot lands. A hit on the
opponent from the point of launching the fleche, crossing the legs, and the
rear foot landing is considered a valid attack assuming the point is
threatening the target area. Any subsequent hit, ie a hit made after the
rear foot lands subjects the flecher to a stop-thrust in time.

So, according to him:

*Director calls fence
*Fencer A immediately launches a fleche, extending the arm continuously, the
rear foot crosses in front of the lead foot,
*Fencer B counters with a stop-thrust,
*Fencer A hits Fencer B and Fencer B hits Fencer A; or Fencer B hits Fencer
A and Fencer A hits Fencer B depending on the relative speeds of the fencers
*Fencer A's rear foot lands
*Director Calls halt

*point awarded to Fencer B due to stop thrust in time.

According to me:
*Director calls fence
*Fencer A immediately launches a fleche, extending the arm continuously, the
rear foot crosses in front of the lead foot,
*Fencer B counters with a stop-thrust,
*Fencer A hits Fencer B and Fencer B hits Fencer A; or Fencer B hits Fencer
A and Fencer A hits Fencer B depending on the relative speeds of the fencers
*Fencer A's rear foot lands
*Director Calls halt

*point awarded to Fencer A due to right-of-way of the initial attack

In article <e7c3f87467cdaa497c9247b69c362329@news.teranews.co m>,
todd@fakemail.org wrote:

> I would just like a collective opinion on the subject of the Fleche right of
> way. I'm trying to avoid quibbling with club mates over misinterpreted rules
> and don't want to press the point if I'm wrong. Please don't lecture me on
> how they're trying to kill the fleche, or that the fleche should only be
> used for short distances. That could be the subject of another thread. I'm
> only interested in a general consensus on the correct interpretation of the
> rules.
>
> For reference:


8. Continuous steps forward, with the legs crossing one another,
constitute a preparation and on this preparation any simple attack has
priority.

A properly executed fleche is not "continuous steps forward." If the
touch lands before the rear foot touches the ground, it isn't even ONE
step yet. Once the back foot lands, your attack is over--at least,
that's the popular interpretation. I couldn't find this specific wording
in the rules.

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

My reading of the original query suggested that the question
was more along the lines of when does the fleche end?
When the back foot lands or when the legs cross. From a
practical point of view I don't think the distinction can
reasonably be made with regard to the hit and Harold's
interpretation would seem to me to be the rationale one.
But of course I am an epeeist and therefore biased toward
rationality.

J.

Harold Buck wrote:
> In article <e7c3f87467cdaa497c9247b69c362329@news.teranews.co m>,
> todd@fakemail.org wrote:
>
>
>>I would just like a collective opinion on the subject of the Fleche right of
>>way. I'm trying to avoid quibbling with club mates over misinterpreted rules
>>and don't want to press the point if I'm wrong. Please don't lecture me on
>>how they're trying to kill the fleche, or that the fleche should only be
>>used for short distances. That could be the subject of another thread. I'm
>>only interested in a general consensus on the correct interpretation of the
>>rules.
>>
>>For reference:
>
>
>
> 8. Continuous steps forward, with the legs crossing one another,
> constitute a preparation and on this preparation any simple attack has
> priority.
>
> A properly executed fleche is not "continuous steps forward." If the
> touch lands before the rear foot touches the ground, it isn't even ONE
> step yet. Once the back foot lands, your attack is over--at least,
> that's the popular interpretation. I couldn't find this specific wording
> in the rules.
>
> --Harold Buck
>
>
> "I used to rock and roll all night,
> and party every day.
> Then it was every other day. . . ."
> -Homer J. Simpson

todd@fakemail.org wrote:
> I would just like a collective opinion on the subject of the Fleche right of
> way. I'm trying to avoid quibbling with club mates over misinterpreted rules
> and don't want to press the point if I'm wrong. Please don't lecture me on
> how they're trying to kill the fleche, or that the fleche should only be
> used for short distances. That could be the subject of another thread. I'm
> only interested in a general consensus on the correct interpretation of the
> rules.
>
> For reference:
>
> t.7 the attack is the initial offensive action made by extending the arm
> and continuously threatening the opponent's target, preceding the launching
> of the lunge or fleche.
>
> This is the rule (Fencing Rules 2002 USFA) that we've "discussed" heatedly
> for the last couple of years:
>
> t.56 7) Continuous steps forward, with the legs crossing one another,
> constitute a preparation and on this preparation any simple attack has
> priority.
>
> Does this rule even address the fleche? I've always assumed it was
> addressing a cross-step, then lunge?
>
> More specifically:
> Assuming that the fleche is correctly launched with the only response of the
> opponent being essentially a simple counter-attack. At what point does the
> attacker (the individual launching the fleche) lose right-of-way? At what
> point is a stop-thrust considered in time?
>
> My club-mate vociferously contends that as soon as the legs are crossed, the
> flecher is open to a stop-thrust which would be considered in time. So
> anything from the point of launching the fleche, crossing the legs, and the
> rear foot landing is preparation.
>
> I hold that right-of-way is held until the rear foot lands. A hit on the
> opponent from the point of launching the fleche, crossing the legs, and the
> rear foot landing is considered a valid attack assuming the point is
> threatening the target area. Any subsequent hit, ie a hit made after the
> rear foot lands subjects the flecher to a stop-thrust in time.
>
> So, according to him:
>
> *Director calls fence
> *Fencer A immediately launches a fleche, extending the arm continuously, the
> rear foot crosses in front of the lead foot,
> *Fencer B counters with a stop-thrust,
> *Fencer A hits Fencer B and Fencer B hits Fencer A; or Fencer B hits Fencer
> A and Fencer A hits Fencer B depending on the relative speeds of the fencers
> *Fencer A's rear foot lands
> *Director Calls halt
>
> *point awarded to Fencer B due to stop thrust in time.
>
> According to me:
> *Director calls fence
> *Fencer A immediately launches a fleche, extending the arm continuously, the
> rear foot crosses in front of the lead foot,
> *Fencer B counters with a stop-thrust,
> *Fencer A hits Fencer B and Fencer B hits Fencer A; or Fencer B hits Fencer
> A and Fencer A hits Fencer B depending on the relative speeds of the fencers
> *Fencer A's rear foot lands
> *Director Calls halt
>
> *point awarded to Fencer A due to right-of-way of the initial attack

I think you (both) misunderstand what it means by the crossing of the
legs is a preparation.

Once the attacker crosses his legs everything up until that point *has
been* a preparation. So when fencer A starts an attack and fencer B
starts a counter-attack and fencer A crosses his legs and then both hit
the action is fencer B's attack into preparation. If fencer B starts
his action *after* fencer A crosses his legs then fencer A has already
started a new attack.

If fencer A begins an attack and is then hit with a stop thrust and then
crosses his legs then the stop thrust is in time.

None of this refers to a fleche at all since in a correctly executed
fleche the hit arrives before the legs cross.

Of course, in none of the U.S. or international (World Cup and World
Championships)competitions I've seen has this ever *actually* been
*called* a preparation in foil. It did get called that way in sabre,
but of course, you can't cross your legs going forward in sabre at all
anymore.

gary hayenga

In article <W6GdneiETpC7W4TdRVn-uw@speakeasy.net>,
gary hayenga <vandg@speakeasy.org> wrote:

>
> None of this refers to a fleche at all since in a correctly executed
> fleche the hit arrives before the legs cross.
>


Gary-

I agree with this, and I was taught that the attack had to land before
the rear foot landed (in much the same way that an attack with lunge
must hit before the front foot hits the ground in order to avaoid being
called attack-remise). However, I was suprised that I couldn't find this
specifically in the rule manual. Do you know which, if any, rules are
used to justify this interpretation?

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

> Gary-
>
> I agree with this, and I was taught that the attack had to land before
> the rear foot landed (in much the same way that an attack with lunge
> must hit before the front foot hits the ground in order to avaoid being
> called attack-remise). However, I was suprised that I couldn't find this
> specifically in the rule manual. Do you know which, if any, rules are
> used to justify this interpretation?
>
> --Harold Buck

If that interpretation stands, what's to stop someone from re-hopping off
their front foot [and their soon-to-be-surgically-repaired knee] before the
rear foot lands at all?

-Bill

In article <0cKdnZNusp-BdYTdRVn2uA@giganews.com>,
"Wolf" <bussone@adelphia.net> wrote:

> > Gary-
> >
> > I agree with this, and I was taught that the attack had to land before
> > the rear foot landed (in much the same way that an attack with lunge
> > must hit before the front foot hits the ground in order to avaoid being
> > called attack-remise). However, I was suprised that I couldn't find this
> > specifically in the rule manual. Do you know which, if any, rules are
> > used to justify this interpretation?
> >
> > --Harold Buck
>
> If that interpretation stands, what's to stop someone from re-hopping off
> their front foot [and their soon-to-be-surgically-repaired knee] before the
> rear foot lands at all?


Well, then it's not a fleche, it's a "flunge," and I think it would be
treated by the rules as a lunge: attack ends when the front foot hits.

Wait, you aren't saying "What's to stop someone from fleching, then
jumping off the front foot before the back foot hits and landing on the
front foot again?", are you? In that case, the answer is "physics!"

When you fleche, the front leg extends and your center of gravity moves
well past the front foot (you're pushing off the front foot, remember).
I don't think there's any way to get that front foot to land before the
back one.

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Thanks everyone. For the Record, I've always assumed that the fleche, when
correctly launched, is a simple attack. I've never had it called any other
way in competition. But sometimes it's hard when somebody waves a seemingly
unrelated rule in front of your face and says "This is what the rules say."
Especially when the rule is vague and doesn't offer concrete examples.

Todd