From estoc to rapier

[Trim Plus Expert]

Hi all,
previously in another topic i was arguing of my opinion on the rapier to be
a descendant of the tuck or estoc. I tough in second that they are not
really alike as other had said on the forum. I then put on boots and get
to the librairy. to find lots of goods works. thats why i havent replied for
that time ;P Ive got some info founded in a book from Maitre Girard Six on
fencing that says the same about the rapier, and i think from a source of
the treatise of master thibault is the same info. Maybe the french estoc is
not the same as english tuck. In words i mean ..

Looking for someone more knowledgable to tell me more about arms history.

Agleos

[William Black]

"Trim Plus Expert" <trimplus@bellnet.ca> wrote in message
news:9wTrb.1741$kA6.136089@news20.bellglobal.com.. .
>. Maybe the french estoc is
> not the same as english tuck. In words i mean ..

It almost certainly is.

However there is a cycle of development of the civilian sword that can be
traced back beyond the introduction of the estoc.

Essentially the blade develops through a double edged sword to a lighter
version usually called a 'sword/rapier, and on to the true rapier.

The late Ewart Oakeshott's books on weapons are always a good staring point
for anyone wanting to learn about the evolution of swords as he's especially
good on blade development. The evolution of the rapier is detailed in his
'European Weapons and Armour, which is just about the standard work, so
any decent library should have a copy.

--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three

[Chris Zakes]

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:32:26 +0000 (UTC), "William Black"
<black_william@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Trim Plus Expert" <trimplus@bellnet.ca> wrote in message
>news:9wTrb.1741$kA6.136089@news20.bellglobal.com. ..
>>. Maybe the french estoc is
>> not the same as english tuck. In words i mean ..
>
>It almost certainly is.
>
>However there is a cycle of development of the civilian sword that can be
>traced back beyond the introduction of the estoc.
>
>Essentially the blade develops through a double edged sword to a lighter
>version usually called a 'sword/rapier, and on to the true rapier.

I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. A.V.B. Norman in his
introduction to "The Rapier and Small-Sword 1460-1820" makes a big
deal about the fact that estocs or tucks and rapiers were *not* the
same sorts of weapons and that they existed simultaneously. He
mentions numerous examples in the 1547 post-mortem inventory of Henry
VIII where rapiers and tucks are listed separately.

Judging by the examples I saw on my trip to England last summer, I'm
inclined to agree. The rapiers had blades that were a flattened
diamond or oval. The tucks had a blade with three or four edges. ASCI
art of blade cross-section:

Rapier blade: /\
/ \
\ /
\/

Tuck blade: /\
< >
\/

(The tuck blade picture isn't entirely accurate, all four sides should
be the same length.) The ones I saw also seemed to be more massive
than the rapier blades.

-Chris Zakes
Texas

I came up here for a party, and what happens? Nothing! Not even
ice cream. The gods looked down and laughed. This would be a
better world for children if the parents had to eat the spinach.

-Groucho Marx, "Animal Crackers"