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andres · 02-07-2002, 06:21 PM

i would probably say a few...
elvis gregory CUB
sergei golubitsky UKR
ralf bissdorf GER

yep that would be probably it.

Lordy · 02-08-2002, 12:15 PM

Not even close! Elvis Gregory? What are you, a Pan-American Games aficionado? Sergei is more on the mark. Bissdorf is good, though I don't believe he rates in the category you are speaking of. He's a fencer with spectacular left handed blade work who uses it to cover up relatively weaker footwork.

damianip · 02-08-2002, 01:29 PM

Edoardo Mangiarotti (two weapons in the same era as D'Oriola)
Christian D'Oriola (Foil)
Alexander Romankov (Foil)
Sergei Golubitski (Foil)
Nedo Nadi (Three weapons)
Aldo Nadi (Three weapons)
Pal Kovacs (Sabre)
Angelo Mazzoni (épée)

Except for Mangiarotti, no particular order and strictly in the context of their own era.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Paolo

AndrewH · 02-08-2002, 02:05 PM

[quote]
Edoardo Mangiarotti (two weapons in the same era as D'Oriola)
Christian D'Oriola (Foil)
Alexander Romankov (Foil)
Sergei Golubitski (Foil)
Nedo Nadi (Three weapons)
Aldo Nadi (Three weapons)
Pal Kovacs (Sabre)
Angelo Mazzoni (épée)
<hr></blockquote>

When was this Kovacs guy around? I fenced someone named Kovacs a couple of months ago and got my head handed to me. Same person, or maybe it runs in the family......?

->Andrew<-

damianip · 02-08-2002, 03:48 PM

[quote]Originally posted by AndrewH:


When was this Kovacs guy around? I fenced someone named Kovacs a couple of months ago and got my head handed to me. Same person, or maybe it runs in the family......?

->Andrew<-<hr></blockquote>

Kovacs is a common Hungarian name: for instance, Ivan Kovacs is currently one of Hungary's and the World's top épéeists. I doubt he's related to Pal but he could be.

As to your question, Pal Kovacs fenced post WWII until the late fifties or so?

Was your adversary Alexander Kovacs? He's a good Vet from the NY area. Don't know him but I've heard his name.

Paolo

AndrewH · 02-08-2002, 04:33 PM

Yea, I guess that would be him- this was in northern NJ. And I showed up hoping to get a classification..........sigh

->Andrew<-

(I did manage to get my E a few weeks later, after a change of venue

)

damianip · 02-08-2002, 04:47 PM

[quote]Originally posted by AndrewH:
Yea, I guess that would be him- this was in northern NJ. And I showed up hoping to get a classification..........sigh

->Andrew<-

(I did manage to get my E a few weeks later, after a change of venue

)<hr></blockquote>

OK Andrew.

I've "cyberstalked" you. Did you lose to Rudnicki on the day you got your "E"?

Paolo

MikeHarm · 02-08-2002, 05:15 PM

Lucien Gaudin

andres · 02-08-2002, 05:44 PM

hey you are supposed to say who the best fencer is not if a kovaks guy is from ny.

damianip · 02-08-2002, 05:45 PM

[quote]Originally posted by MikeHarm:
Lucien Gaudin<hr></blockquote>

Nadi tells an interesting story about Gaudin and his final Olympics at Amsterdam and how he (Gaudin) begged Buchard (clearly the superior épéeist) to allow him to win the gold.

Gaudin was interesting, but hardly the best of all time.

Paolo

Emfuser · 02-08-2002, 06:07 PM

Awhile ago I put some info about my family structure and determined that (while a marriage of a particular aunt and uncle existed) I was related to the Kovacs family for awhile.

Go figure that the uncle who bore that last name was indeed a fencer at some point in time.

Weird...

AndrewH · 02-09-2002, 12:02 PM

Whew, just got back from HS districts- we missed states by 1 bout!!!! Arg.

Paolo, I lose to Rudnicki a lot

Actually one time I did beat him to end up 5-0, only to lose the next 2 bouts, and the E. I'd assume you looked through the NJ division results so keep checking till you find me in 1st. There were actually more people in that tourney that listed, but 2 dropped (after I beat them.....) and weren't on the results.

->Andrew<-

damianip · 02-09-2002, 01:02 PM

[quote]Originally posted by AndrewH:
Whew, just got back from HS districts- we missed states by 1 bout!!!! Arg.

Paolo, I lose to Rudnicki a lot

<SNIP>

I'd assume you looked through the NJ division results so keep checking till you find me in 1st. There were actually more people in that tourney that listed, but 2 dropped (after I beat them.....) and weren't on the results.

->Andrew<-<hr></blockquote>

Everyone is going to lose to Alex. There's a lot of potential in that kid.

He used to fence at our club a while back. He's the biggest 14 year old I've seen in years. He's taller than my son and he's three years younger. When he fenced here, he used to beat the adults at our club half the time. If he came back now I'm sure he'd beat most of them most of the time.

Keep at it, if you can stay with him you're doing something right. I'll expect to see you up on the NJUSFA regularly.

Paolo

AndrewH · 02-09-2002, 01:17 PM

Well you see for some reason my fencing ability runs in streaks- one day I'm beating people like Rudnicki and Huang 5-2, the next I'm losing 0-5. So, it's those good days I get my medals from..... and I wouldn't lay claim to being even or keeping up with Alex at all.

I actually had a chance at a C last week, and if my hand had been about a centimeter lower the attack wouldn't have hit me and I woulda made a clean parry. Of course the ironic thing is that with a C I would no longer be eligible for Div III- maybe it's better to stay an E for now. BTW, I believe Alex got his D02 at that tournament.

->Andrew<-

nahouw · 02-09-2002, 02:37 PM

Paolo,

Good list!

I would only add Smirnov (foil) and Kolobkov (epee).

And part of what makes Golubitsky so good, is that while he was a Junior , he was regularly training with Romankov --by training with the best, it only brings your level of fencing up.

This is a lesson from the former Soviet Union that the USFA needs to learn -- part of the reason why Men's Sabre in the US has been so successful, is that Peter Westbrook is one of the only successful US fencers that has stayed on to work with developing our youth. It is an especially wonderful experience watching bouts when Peter is fencing with Dwayne Smith -- it is like being in a time warp, watching Peter fence himself as he was 30 years ago.

Andrew,

You fenced Al Kovacs NYAC - Metro division - no relations.

And with Rudnicki, he is very good -- and at 14, he is also already an excellent director.

andres · 02-09-2002, 02:37 PM

hey guys!!!!!!!!!!! you are supposed to post which fencer is the best not who wins dumb tournaments!!!!!!!!!!!! if you wanna talk about that you should open a new topic!!!!!!!!

damianip · 02-09-2002, 05:08 PM

Nahouw,

I agree about Smirnov, it was a career and life cut tragically short. I think for greatness you have to add the element of longevity.

Kolobkov is also hard to leave off this sort of a list, but I was trying to span the generations of modern fencing. I hear that he has been self coached for the past few seasons. If that's true then he should get points for that.

In the same era, Mazzoni has had a long and brilliant career, plus he's my favorite fencer. I wish I could fence even remotely like him.

Certainly a history and a legacy helps develop greatness which has traditionally helped the Europeans. As the Western hemisphere and Asia (those Koreans and Chinese!) gain their own traditions, you'll see a little more parity in results.

Andres,

Relax. These conversations tend to drift back and forth but they usually stay on track.

Paolo

veeco · 02-11-2002, 09:00 AM

[quote]Originally posted by damianip:


Nadi tells an interesting story about Gaudin and his final Olympics at Amsterdam and how he (Gaudin) begged Buchard (clearly the superior épéeist) to allow him to win the gold.

Gaudin was interesting, but hardly the best of all time.

Paolo<hr></blockquote>

Nadi hated Gaudin. So of course he was not going to praise him in his bouts. And he manages to find excuses for loosing to him in his books. Funny you mention that Gaudin is not hardly the best of all times, when he is one of those who managed to beat Nadi (who self proclaimed himself undefeated after that, carefully choosing his opponents to avoid those that might beat him).

Nadi was a great fencer, don't take me wrong, but I don't know why Gaudin should not make this list if Nadi does :-). After all we're not limited to a number right?

I agree on Mangiarotti.

Also, I think In Sabre Jean-Francois Lamour should be included. I don't know many sabre fencers who have the same palmares as him...

Inquartata · 02-11-2002, 04:21 PM

Of all times? Maybe Bertrand. Reputedly never defeated in an actual ( as opposed to practice ) encounter. Admittedly, that's going back a long way, to when fencing was rather different...

damianip · 02-11-2002, 05:58 PM

[quote]Originally posted by veeco:


Nadi hated Gaudin. So of course he was not going to praise him in his bouts. And he manages to find excuses for loosing to him in his books. Funny you mention that Gaudin is not hardly the best of all times, when he is one of those who managed to beat Nadi (who self proclaimed himself undefeated after that, carefully choosing his opponents to avoid those that might beat him).

Nadi was a great fencer, don't take me wrong, but I don't know why Gaudin should not make this list if Nadi does :-). After all we're not limited to a number right?

I agree on Mangiarotti.

Also, I think In Sabre Jean-Francois Lamour should be included. I don't know many sabre fencers who have the same palmares as him...<hr></blockquote>

Veeco,

Maybe it's my Italian point of view but I think that Gaudin was the king of avoidance. I cite the Olympic example because it was apparently verified by Buchard (Gaudin's compatriot). Gaudin seemd very tragic to me (did he commit suicide? I've heard rumors of this but could never verify it). Nadi at the end of his life seems bitter rather than tragic.

I don't deny that Nadi hated Gaudin. I'm sure the feeling was mutual. Then again, Nadi was a bit of a misanthrope, wasn't he?

The old system of challenge matches (where Nadi and Gaudin thrived), akin to present day boxing, allowed for the fencer to remain unbeaten by careful manipulation of match ups. I don't think either of them would have been so invincible in a modern World Cup type circuit.

Although Nadi objected, many Italians felt (and I do too) that Mangiarotti was the superior fencer. I view it in light of the fact that Mangiarotti fenced in a "larger" world with more frequent competitions in which the opponents were not chosen by the fencers nor limited to a small selection. Mangiarotti also fenced during the transition from dry to electric foil, indicating a flexibility which reportedly, not all top fencers of the day could exhibit.

Veeco, in deference to my respect for your expertise, I will, however, now admit Lucien Gaudin to the "Paolo" list of great ones.

Paolo

[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: damianip ]