02-12-2002, 10:08 AM
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#21 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: May 2000 Location: The valley of the -hot- sun, NorCal
Posts: 3,185
| Paolo,
No, I think Mangiarotti and Kolobkov are arguably some of the best epee fencers ever.
I just wanted to make sure that credit was given to Gaudin. It seems that a lot of people in the US have read Aldo Nadi's books, and I think those books while a very entertaining read give a rather one sided view of the rivality.
Don't put words in my mouth, I did not say Gaudin was a better fencer than Nadi (who would I be to make such decision?).
Thanks for being patient with me though :-), and putting Gaudin on your list...
__________________ - Epee is the Louis Vuitton bag of fencing: only the best can get it, and the rest of the masses must content themselves with cheap knockoffs (sabre, foil)
- To not recognize the power of the French grip is to be in denial
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| | | And now for this message... |
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02-12-2002, 11:16 AM
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#22 | | Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 40
| Two of you mentioned Smirnov, and that his career was cut short. Having never heard of him (although I've never heard of a lot fencers), I found his name on the FIE list and saw that he won the 1979 and 1980 WC and Olympics and World Cups, but those were the only two years I saw anything about him.
What happened to him? | 
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02-12-2002, 12:45 PM
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#23 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 1,192
| [quote]Originally posted by veeco:
<strong>Paolo,
Don't put words in my mouth, I did not say Gaudin was a better fencer than Nadi (who would I be to make such decision?).
Thanks for being patient with me though :-), and putting Gaudin on your list...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Did I say that you said that? If I did or implied that I apologize. I think that maybe you were thinking it. ;~)
And, yes, this speculation about who is the greatest is strictly that: based on our limited understanding of the history of modern fencing. I think we're all a bit young to have a broad expanse of first hand knowledge of these fencers.
I ask again, do you know the nature of Gaudin's demise?
Paolo
__________________
"He is a man of splendid abilities but utterly corrupt. He shines and stinks like rotten mackerel by moonlight." "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats."
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02-12-2002, 12:53 PM
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#24 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 1,192
| [quote]Originally posted by goldbaker:
<strong>Two of you mentioned Smirnov, and that his career was cut short. Having never heard of him (although I've never heard of a lot fencers), I found his name on the FIE list and saw that he won the 1979 and 1980 WC and Olympics and World Cups, but those were the only two years I saw anything about him.
What happened to him?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Vladmir Smirnov died in 1982. During the World Championships in Rome that year, he was fencing against Matthias Behr of West Germany. Behr's foil broke and the remaining blade pierced Smirnov's mask, entering his brain through the eye socket.
He died 8 or 9 days later.
The reason we have FIE mesh, maraging steel blades and FIE fabrics is largely due to this tragedy.
Paolo
__________________
"He is a man of splendid abilities but utterly corrupt. He shines and stinks like rotten mackerel by moonlight." "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats."
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02-12-2002, 03:04 PM
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#25 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: May 2000 Location: The valley of the -hot- sun, NorCal
Posts: 3,185
| <a href="http://geocities.com/lfbollee/Gaudinchapitre.doc" target="_blank">http://geocities.com/lfbollee/Gaudinchapitre.doc</a>
According to this, it seems likely that Gaudin committed suicide. There is a book called "Lucien Gaudin, le Maitre des Armes" by Laurent-Frederic Bollee which contains the whole bio of L. Gaudin. I have unfortunately never read it.
According to the first chapter of this book, some people say that he committed suicide (using barbiturates).
__________________ - Epee is the Louis Vuitton bag of fencing: only the best can get it, and the rest of the masses must content themselves with cheap knockoffs (sabre, foil)
- To not recognize the power of the French grip is to be in denial
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02-12-2002, 06:51 PM
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#26 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 1,192
| [quote]Originally posted by veeco:
<strong><a href="http://geocities.com/lfbollee/Gaudinchapitre.doc" target="_blank">http://geocities.com/lfbollee/Gaudinchapit re.doc</a>
According to this, it seems likely that Gaudin committed suicide. There is a book called "Lucien Gaudin, le Maitre des Armes" by Laurent-Frederic Bollee which contains the whole bio of L. Gaudin. I have unfortunately never read it.
According to the first chapter of this book, some people say that he committed suicide (using barbiturates).</strong><hr></blockquote>
Then he certainly seems more tragic than ever. I guess the pressures of being dubbed the greatest by his countryman were greater than can be imagined.
Nadi took the pressure off himself by dubbing HIMSELF the greatest.
Thanks for the info. maybe I'll try to resurrect my high school French and try and locate the biography.
Paolo
__________________
"He is a man of splendid abilities but utterly corrupt. He shines and stinks like rotten mackerel by moonlight." "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats."
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02-12-2002, 11:05 PM
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#27 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Ypsilanti, Mi USA
Posts: 1,591
| Well, I still think Lucien was one of the best. The suicide and begging for an opponent to let him win shows another side of him that I hadn't read of. Everyone is human though I suppose.. 
[ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: MikeHarm ]</p> | |
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02-14-2002, 10:16 AM
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#28 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Redford, Michigan
Posts: 890
| I'll cast my vote for Miyamoto Mushasi. No one said we had to limit it to European fencing, right? As far as the won-lost catagory, no one can compare to Miyamoto. He was da man!  | |
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