Is modern fencing far remove from real fencing ?

[Trim Plus Expert]

Hi all,
I think it would be an intersting topic to discus!
What i mean is, the technique used in today modern sport fencing are still
realistic in face of what fencing used to be in the terms of duelling.
I let you all argue a little bit about this !

Agleos Arkeneight

[Delia M. Turner]

This has been argued to death. Most of us aren't all that interested
in it any more. I'd be more interested in a thread about whether, for
instance, fencing was comparable to auto racing. Or golf. Or
literary analysis. Or grocery shopping.


--Delia

"Trim Plus Expert" <trimplus@bellnet.ca> wrote in message news:<8TuWa.714$Ji1.153715@news20.bellglobal.com>. ..
> Hi all,
> I think it would be an intersting topic to discus!
> What i mean is, the technique used in today modern sport fencing are still
> realistic in face of what fencing used to be in the terms of duelling.
> I let you all argue a little bit about this !
>
> Agleos Arkeneight

[Zebee Johnstone]

In rec.sport.fencing on 1 Aug 2003 10:06:26 -0700
Delia M. Turner <dmturner@dmturner.org> wrote:
> This has been argued to death. Most of us aren't all that interested
> in it any more. I'd be more interested in a thread about whether, for
> instance, fencing was comparable to auto racing. Or golf. Or
> literary analysis. Or grocery shopping.
>

Hmmm. car racing. Well... the footwork in car racing is equally
important, but I don't know the angle of the knee is as vital, and the
distance between the feet is very easy to keep exactly the same. Racing
car drivers do seem to attack on the pass, a thing sport fencers no
longer do, and many historical fencers have trouble with. There is
often body-to-body contact in car racing, but like fencing, it's
not allowed in the rules except for certain variant rulesets which
aren't in common use but some folk really go for them.

The injury rate in car racing is probably similar, althoug the injuries
tend to be greater - fewer knee reconstructions, more broken bones.

Fencing's cheaper than car racing, but car racing gets more spectators.

Both have to have special clothing to compete, but people who just do it
for fun rather than at formal competitions often just do it in whatever
clothing they have at hand.

Fencing blades break reasonably often, but so do car motors.

So looks like car racing and fencing are pretty similar!

Zebee

[Amy & Joseph Kormann]

I've never seen a fencer burst into flame after hitting the side of the
piste...

--
Amy and Joseph Kormann

[Amy & Joseph Kormann]

Zebee Johnstone wrote:

>Hmmm. car racing. Well... the footwork in car racing is equally
>important, but I don't know the angle of the knee is as vital, and the
>distance between the feet is very easy to keep exactly the same.
>

The 'angle of the knee' comment bubbled up a thought -- Is it possible
since fencing is such a linear sport that the sides of the knee get less
of a work-out and are more prone to stress related damage (ACL tears for
example).

--
Amy and Joseph Kormann

[Zebee Johnstone]

In rec.sport.fencing on Fri, 01 Aug 2003 20:32:04 -0400
Amy & Joseph Kormann <ajkormann@monmouth.com> wrote:
> Zebee Johnstone wrote:
>
>>Hmmm. car racing. Well... the footwork in car racing is equally
>>important, but I don't know the angle of the knee is as vital, and the
>>distance between the feet is very easy to keep exactly the same.
>>
>
> The 'angle of the knee' comment bubbled up a thought -- Is it possible
> since fencing is such a linear sport that the sides of the knee get less
> of a work-out and are more prone to stress related damage (ACL tears for
> example).


Well.. the knee is a joint designed to work in one plane only. It's not
a swivel joint.

You can build up muscles around it, so that *if* you try and move it in
ways it isn't meant to go, it doesn't fare too badly.

If you have perfect form, I don't think the knee is strained. But who
has perfect form?

Zebee

--
Zebee Johnstone (zebee@zip.com.au), proud holder of
aus.motorcycles Poser Permit #1.
"Motorcycles are like peanuts... who can stop at just one?"

[Ed Ploy]

Amy & Joseph Kormann wrote:

>Is it possible... that the sides of the knee get less
> of a work-out and are more prone to stress related damage (ACL tears for
> example).
>

Not my _back_ knee! *grin* I've wondered similar things, though, about
my front one, and have tried to strengthen it using some improvised
scissors type exercises. It's helped a bit, I think. Maybe. I still go
back and forth about blaming my popping knee on hard surfaces or on
muscle imbalance. On alternate Wednesdays I blame it on both. Couldn't
be age, though... nuh-uh...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't ACL injuries usually from twisting
and/or sudden changes in direction? I wouldn't think that that would be
very common from fencing, even if the knee wasn't getting a workout in
that direction (sympathies to those who have suffered it though).

-Ed Ploy

[Wolf]

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't ACL injuries usually from twisting
> and/or sudden changes in direction? I wouldn't think that that would be
> very common from fencing, even if the knee wasn't getting a workout in
> that direction (sympathies to those who have suffered it though).
>
> -Ed Ploy

Best way to tear your ACL is to plant your foot and then have someone kick
the side of your knee. You stress the muscles and ligaments until they fail,
often taking the PCL with them, as it suddenly takes all the load.

Best to not try this at home, however. The best orthopedic surgery is the
one you don't have.

-Bill

[Amy & Joseph Kormann]

I need to clarify. I was not saying that fencing is a cause of torn ACL.
I was musing on how fencing doesn't appear to put strain on the knee in
such a way that would normally cause a torn ACL. And because of this
exercise in the non-ACL tear plane, it puts the fencer at risk for
getting a torn ACL in another sport. The planeral muscles are strong,
but the lateral muscles / tendons are not.

--
Amy and Joseph Kormann

[Delia M. Turner]

A friend of mine tore his MCL (I think, I know it wasn't the ACL) in
epee when his opponent stepped on his foot as he was twisting to
infight.

Another tore his ACL when he was retreating and stepped on the reel.

--Delia

"Wolf" <bussone@vt.edu> wrote in message news:<PGydnSPLaYhe0LaiXTWJkw@giganews.com>...
> > Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't ACL injuries usually from twisting
> > and/or sudden changes in direction? I wouldn't think that that would be
> > very common from fencing, even if the knee wasn't getting a workout in
> > that direction (sympathies to those who have suffered it though).
> >
> > -Ed Ploy
>
> Best way to tear your ACL is to plant your foot and then have someone kick
> the side of your knee. You stress the muscles and ligaments until they fail,
> often taking the PCL with them, as it suddenly takes all the load.
>
> Best to not try this at home, however. The best orthopedic surgery is the
> one you don't have.
>
> -Bill

[Fenfool]

That would probably get fencing on TV more though!

"Amy & Joseph Kormann" <ajkormann@monmouth.com> wrote in message
news:bgf0pe$nb0$1@news.monmouth.com...
> I've never seen a fencer burst into flame after hitting the side of the
> piste...
>
> --
> Amy and Joseph Kormann
>

[William Black]

"Trim Plus Expert" <trimplus@bellnet.ca> wrote in message
news:8TuWa.714$Ji1.153715@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Hi all,
> I think it would be an intersting topic to discus!
> What i mean is, the technique used in today modern sport fencing are still
> realistic in face of what fencing used to be in the terms of duelling.
> I let you all argue a little bit about this !

I don't have a fencing background but I have met a couple of sport fencers
who do 'historical fence'.

The main problem I think is mind set, sport fencers seem to think that
taking risks in an attack so taking the odd 'hit' is acceptable practice,
the rest is essentially learning a different way to stand and move, and of
course, the increased weight of the weapons.

--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three

[Joe Hoffman]

About half of the movie "Bull Durham", in which they superficially
appear to be talking about baseball, sounds to me like good instructions
for fencers. So maybe fencing is comparable to baseball.

Joe

"Delia M. Turner" wrote:
>
> This has been argued to death. Most of us aren't all that interested
> in it any more. I'd be more interested in a thread about whether, for
> instance, fencing was comparable to auto racing. Or golf. Or
> literary analysis. Or grocery shopping.
>

[Jim Smith]

This has potential... So what's the fencing equivalent to a well-executed
heel-and-toe downshift? (I can think of several equivalents to a
badly-executed one... like how I tore up my back knee a couple of years
ago!).

Jim (erstwhile epeeist, and mad "M Coupe"ist)

"Zebee Johnstone" <zebee@zip.com.au> wrote in message
news:slrnbilhn9.tse.zebee@zeus.zipworld.com.au...
> In rec.sport.fencing on 1 Aug 2003 10:06:26 -0700
> Delia M. Turner <dmturner@dmturner.org> wrote:
> > This has been argued to death. Most of us aren't all that interested
> > in it any more. I'd be more interested in a thread about whether, for
> > instance, fencing was comparable to auto racing. Or golf. Or
> > literary analysis. Or grocery shopping.
> >
>
> Hmmm. car racing. Well... the footwork in car racing is equally
> important, but I don't know the angle of the knee is as vital, and the
> distance between the feet is very easy to keep exactly the same. Racing
> car drivers do seem to attack on the pass, a thing sport fencers no
> longer do, and many historical fencers have trouble with. There is
> often body-to-body contact in car racing, but like fencing, it's
> not allowed in the rules except for certain variant rulesets which
> aren't in common use but some folk really go for them.
>
> The injury rate in car racing is probably similar, althoug the injuries
> tend to be greater - fewer knee reconstructions, more broken bones.
>
> Fencing's cheaper than car racing, but car racing gets more spectators.
>
> Both have to have special clothing to compete, but people who just do it
> for fun rather than at formal competitions often just do it in whatever
> clothing they have at hand.
>
> Fencing blades break reasonably often, but so do car motors.
>
> So looks like car racing and fencing are pretty similar!
>
> Zebee

[Delia M. Turner]

Epee fencers are those bizarre people who buy things all year long
when they see them -- "Oh, this would be perfect for Aunt Edna, for
Christmas," they say, when in July they happen across a stuffed emu on
sale. Sabre fencers are the ones who do it all on Christmas Eve.
Foilists are the ones who wrap everything perfectly so you feel like
you are destroying something while you're tearing the paper and
pulling off the ribbons.

--Delia

"Robert O. Waddoups" <waddoups@airmail.net> wrote in message news:<bggto2$5pi@library1.airnews.net>...

> Maybe not grocery shopping - but definitely HoLiday Shopping! Now
> there's a sport worth comparing! Foil fencers probably are the
> comparison shoppers (simply because foilists are always defending their
> choice of weapon to the epee and sabre fencers). Sabre fencers are the
> first ones into the fray - the early ones to the sales - and the ones
> hacking and slashing their way through the other shoppers to get that
> "special toy." And epee fencers are probably the catalog and online
> shoppers - you know, the last minute shoppers that forgot the date and
> are just getting into the swing of things on Christmas Eve.....
>
> Now THAT's something worth discussing! ;-)
>
> Brenda
>
> --

[Thom Cate]

dmturner@dmturner.org (Delia M. Turner) wrote in message news:<a02e0196.0308020532.749149db@posting.google. com>...

> Another tore his ACL when he was retreating and stepped on the reel.

In every division I've been in, people accuse me of being over
cautious about safety, saying they're plenty safe, and no, they don't
need underarm protectors or mask-punch tests.

Inasmuch as I'm willing to allow people to take risks with their own
lives (hey, it's right in the rules!), I am *appalled* at the way most
events set up strips, as this jeopardizes everyone's health.

When setting up the piste, either at club or for competition, I
*insist* on a 1m "no zone" surrounding the strip (per the rules), in
which there are absolutely no fixed objects. No tables with scoring
equpment, no reels, no weapons lying on the floor, fencing bags,
seating for on-deck fencers, nothing immobile may encroach this zone.

Naturally, this means each regulation piste is fully 18m long (I
prefer 20m, but that's hard) by 3.5m wide. I'll be the first to say
it: huge.

Sometimes this means I set up fewer strips than the space could
otherwise afford--but it's not worth it to me to see yet another blown
knee joint. I have witnessed three ACL injuries as a spectator or
referee; one was out with only physical therapy, one had experimental
meniscus transplant (ewww!) and one never fenced again after that day.

*All* of these people tripped on either reels or equipment lying on
the floor behind the strip, where there was plenty of room otherwise.

Ok, rant off. Thanks for your patience.

TC

--

[Ed Ploy]

Probably a rant that's needed. I've been surprised a fair number of
times (in only 1-1/2 years of fencing) at the amount of clutter allowed
next to the strip. I don't know how it's done at larger events, but I do
know that us club types (myself very much included) need to remember to
keep a generous safe zone around our strips, and that includes human
clutter as well as trip hazards and slip hazards and work tables. I'm
really glad you mentioned the reels themselves, as I honestly wouldn't
have thought of removing the reel from the runoff zone behind the strip
even though I've seen a number of people trip over them.

As far as human hazards go, I've been on strips so closely laid out that
the ref on strip one gets a flick to the back of the head coming from
strip two, and seen people sitting so close to the strip that I've given
up considerable ground rather than fence right next to their (unmasked)
heads. I've asked for a halt once or twice as well, and asked the ref to
remove people who wander too close.

-Ed Ploy


Thom Cate wrote:

> ...I am *appalled* at the way most
> events set up strips, as this jeopardizes everyone's health.
>

<Snippage>

>
> Ok, rant off. Thanks for your patience.
>
> TC

[Mark C. Orton]

On 5 Aug 2003 06:01:50 -0700, dmturner@dmturner.org (Delia M. Turner)
wrote:

> Epee fencers are those bizarre people who buy things all year long
> when they see them -- "Oh, this would be perfect for Aunt Edna, for
> Christmas," they say, when in July they happen across a stuffed emu on
> sale. Sabre fencers are the ones who do it all on Christmas Eve.
> Foilists are the ones who wrap everything perfectly so you feel like
> you are destroying something while you're tearing the paper and
> pulling off the ribbons.

What does that make the referees - salesmen?

-Mark-

[TS]

> What does that make the referees - salesmen?
>
> -Mark-


NO, it makes the referees LAWYERS.


-ts

[Robert O. Waddoups]

Mark C. Orton wrote:

>On 5 Aug 2003 06:01:50 -0700, dmturner@dmturner.org (Delia M. Turner)
>wrote:
>
>
>
>>Epee fencers are those bizarre people who buy things all year long
>>when they see them -- "Oh, this would be perfect for Aunt Edna, for
>>Christmas," they say, when in July they happen across a stuffed emu on
>>sale. Sabre fencers are the ones who do it all on Christmas Eve.
>>Foilists are the ones who wrap everything perfectly so you feel like
>>you are destroying something while you're tearing the paper and
>>pulling off the ribbons.
>>
>>
>
>What does that make the referees - salesmen?
>
>-Mark-
>
>

No, Scrooge! ;-)

Brenda