Best combat sword?

In rec.sport.fencing on 26 Jul 2003 11:46:57 -0700
William Marshal <trebuchet30303@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Zebee Johnstone <zebee@zip.com.au> wrote
>
>
>>
>> I've seen a number from the Crimea where the sword was wrenched from the
>> hand. At least one from the Charge, and several others.
>>
>> Zebee
>
>
> In which source, if I might ask?

Memoirs and one report of oral history, but I can't recall the sources,
I came acorss them looking for other things,

>
> Were these the aftermath of thrusts, cuts, or what?

Using the sword as a lance - arm extended, point goes in, rider travels
past, doesn't mamage to get sword out.

Zebee

Zebee Johnstone wrote:

>An epee is a small light sword. If they were using a 40" fibreglass -
>same weight but longer than your epee - they might surprise you.
>

I doubt any of the 15-16th century re-creation types I've fenced with
would consider a fibreglass blade 'period'. The 40's they use are all
long steel epee-style blades mounted on very nice looking hilts, guards,
etc.

>
>If they were allowed to cut properly, they might surprise you too.
>

If I didn't off-hand parry, I'd be in some real danger. <grin>
Fortunately the same rule which allows them the 40" blade also allows
the off-hand parries.

--
Amy and Joseph Kormann

"Zebee Johnstone" <zebee@zip.com.au> wrote in message
news:slrnbi5pda.tej.zebee@zeus.zipworld.com.au...
> In rec.sport.fencing on Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:38:27 +0000 (UTC)
> William Black <black_william@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >

>
> > Rapiers of the period are a bit heavy to parry with I'm afraid.
>
> really?
>
> Average around 2.2lb. My 2.2lb rapier can not only be parried with, but
> I can do a one-two!
>
> And those who taught single rapier certainly parried with them.

Hey, not fair!

I said you can parry with a rapier, Capo Ferro's 'universal parry' (now
called a circular parry) certainly can be done with a rapier.

I also said you can't do it terribly quickly...

--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three

In rec.sport.fencing on Sun, 27 Jul 2003 14:10:18 +0000 (UTC)
William Black <black_william@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Zebee Johnstone" <zebee@zip.com.au> wrote in message
> news:slrnbi5pda.tej.zebee@zeus.zipworld.com.au...
>> In rec.sport.fencing on Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:38:27 +0000 (UTC)
>> William Black <black_william@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>
>>
>> > Rapiers of the period are a bit heavy to parry with I'm afraid.
>>
>> really?
>>
>> Average around 2.2lb. My 2.2lb rapier can not only be parried with, but
>> I can do a one-two!
>>
>> And those who taught single rapier certainly parried with them.
>
> Hey, not fair!
>
> I said you can parry with a rapier, Capo Ferro's 'universal parry' (now
> called a circular parry) certainly can be done with a rapier.
>

what you said is up there: "bit heavy to parry with"

All parries can be done with a rapier, or a backsword. Yes, to deal
with an epee is difficult, can be done, have seen it done, have done it.

Onthe other hand, a rapier cut, even a wrist cut, let alone something
heavier, or Swetnam's halfswording techniques would blow through an
epee, and would lead to either the epee wielder being hurt or both being
hurt if the epeeist can get around the longer blade.

Zebee

"Zebee Johnstone" <zebee@zip.com.au> wrote in message
news:slrnbi8gdl.687.zebee@zeus.zipworld.com.au...

> Onthe other hand, a rapier cut, even a wrist cut, let alone something
> heavier, or Swetnam's halfswording techniques would blow through an
> epee, and would lead to either the epee wielder being hurt or both being
> hurt if the epeeist can get around the longer blade.

Swetnam's wonderful, a sort of seventeenth century 'Duelling for Dummies'.

I can see young men who've got themselves into a fight but with no training
going home with a copy and spending the night reading it and practicing
wards...

--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:54:14 +0000 (UTC), "William Black"
<black_william@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Chris Zakes" <moondrgn@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:4au0ivoe7l4epr44n4olfecg7qvea81u1r@4ax.com.. .
>
>> I got back from a month-long trip to England last week. One of the
>> things I did was look at as many rapiers as I could (as well as swords
>> in general.) The ones I saw had very distinct edges, and were quite
>> sharp. I think the notion that "rapiers had no edges" is nonsense.
>
>The whole 'Sword-sword-rapier-rapier thing is fraught with danger.
>
>Oakeshott himself had to compromise with this one and said something like
>'If you think you could cut off someone's arm with it then it's a sword,
>and if you don't then it's a rapier.
>
>There are many full hilt 'rapiers' in the wonderful collection of edged
>weapons in Glasgow City Museum which range from almost arming sword weight
>down to elegant deadly needles with flared cutting edges at the tip for
>opening a man's cheeks...

Interesting. I didn't make it to the Glasgow City Museum, but the
weapon displays I saw at the Royal Armory in Leeds, the Victoria &
Albert Museum, Arundel Castle and the Metropolitan Museum of Art in
New York all made a clear distinction between "swords" and "rapiers".
I didn't see any that *I* would have labelled differently: the swords
had much wider blades than the rapiers, even though some of the swords
had swept hilts and some of the rapiers had fairly simple hilts.


>At the time these things were worn by normal people, and they didn't have
>that many rules about how to fight, and they used what they thought would
>work, or what was fashionable, or was what their teacher recommended.

That depends *a lot* on the circumstances of the fight. You are
correct that in an informal duel or street brawl, they would use
whatever was at hand. I haven't studied duelling customs after about
1600, but before the seventeenth century in a formal duel (which is
what I was talking about) everything I've read said that the fighters
would be equipped as identically as possible--same length and type of
sword, same armor, etc. One writer even suggested that if the
challenged fighter was missing an eye or a limb, his challenger should
have the same eye or limb removed before they were allowed to fight.

-Chris Zakes
Texas

I came up here for a party, and what happens? Nothing! Not even
ice cream. The gods looked down and laughed. This would be a better
world for children if the parents had to eat the spinach.

-Groucho Marx, "Animal Crackers"

"Zebee Johnstone" <zebee@zip.com.au> wrote in message
news:slrnbib66r.uv4.zebee@zeus.zipworld.com.au...
> In rec.sport.fencing on Mon, 28 Jul 2003 18:22:48 +0000 (UTC)
> William Black <black_william@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > "Zebee Johnstone" <zebee@zip.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:slrnbi8gdl.687.zebee@zeus.zipworld.com.au...
> >
> >> Onthe other hand, a rapier cut, even a wrist cut, let alone something
> >> heavier, or Swetnam's halfswording techniques would blow through an
> >> epee, and would lead to either the epee wielder being hurt or both
being
> >> hurt if the epeeist can get around the longer blade.
> >
> > Swetnam's wonderful, a sort of seventeenth century 'Duelling for
Dummies'.
> >
> > I can see young men who've got themselves into a fight but with no
training
> > going home with a copy and spending the night reading it and practicing
> > wards...
> >
>
> well that's what the first section is clearly about. The explosive
> "wait til he gets within this range you have practice at then go hard
> in". You don't need much expertise, and you can practice that one move
> heaps, and it probably will get you through most fights with average
> (meaning mostly untrained) fighters. And maybe ones with trained ones.

It got me through loads of fights when I was starting out...

--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:54:18 +0000 (UTC), "William Black"
<black_william@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Chris Zakes" <moondrgn@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:4au0ivoe7l4epr44n4olfecg7qvea81u1r@4ax.com.. .
>
>> 2. At least in England, wearing a glove of that sort was illegal--it
>> was considered an indication that the wearer was out looking for
>> trouble, not innocently minding his own business.
>
>You wouldn't have a cite for that would you?
>
>It sounds a bit the story about the watchmen to the City of London measuring
>rapier blades and breaking off over long ones in Queen Elizabeth's days.
>It's a good story, and first appears, as far as I'm aware, in 'Fuller's
>Worthies' in about 1662, some sixty odd years after the supposed event...

This is taken from the introduction to A.V.B. Norman's "The Rapier and
Small-Sword". He quotes a law proclaimed by Mary Tudor and Prince
Philip, dated March 17th, 1557.

"...and that from henceforth no person or persons of what estate or
condition so ever he or they be do use or wear by night or by day nor
sell any sword or rapier above the length of a yard and a half quarter
in the blade at the most, nor any buckler with more pikes therein than
one, and the same not to be sharp or above 2 inches long, or of a
broader size than hath been most commonly used within this realm nor
use or wear any gauntlet or vambrace nor any other weapon of defense,
other than their common swords, rapiers, daggers and bucklers..."

This law was re-proclaimed by Queen Elisabeth in 1562 and again in
1566.

There's an "extendable" rapier on display at the Royal Armory in Leeds
that was supposedly built to get around that law. You can see a
picture at: http://garnes.netfirms.com/leedsrapier4.jpg with a copy of
the description at http://garnes.netfirms.com/leedsrapier4doc.jpg

-Chris Zakes
Texas

I came up here for a party, and what happens? Nothing! Not even
ice cream. The gods looked down and laughed. This would be a better
world for children if the parents had to eat the spinach.

-Groucho Marx, "Animal Crackers"

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:38:27 +0000 (UTC), "William Black"
<black_william@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Amy & Joseph Kormann" <ajkormann@monmouth.com> wrote in message
>news:bfsk0j$q9c$1@news.monmouth.com...
>
>> I could never understand people who use very long blades. I've always
>> thought the weight and bulk caused a disadvantage when you could just
>> move around and hit with a smaller, lighter, faster weapon. People in
>> SCA who I've fought with and they've used 'the ole 40!' generally lost
>> to my 34-length epee. They extend, I off-hand parry, double step in and
>> gut-em.
>
>Rapiers of the period are a bit heavy to parry with I'm afraid.
>
>You can just about manage a simple circular parry with a lightish shortish
>one, but anything with enough metal to support a cutting edge is just too
>heavy, which is why they were lugging all those daggers, bucklers,
>cloaks, batons and etc with them...

Maybe. The Del Tin practice rapier I use for SCA fighting is 47.5
inches in total length (39.5" blade) and weighs 2.25 lbs. Just about
any move that I can do with my foil, I can do with my Del Tin. I think
that, given some time to work with it, I'd be able to do the same with
a 3 lb blade, as long as the balance was good.

A lot depends on how strong your wrists are, and how much time you've
spent working with that blade.

-Chris Zakes
Texas

I came up here for a party, and what happens? Nothing! Not even
ice cream. The gods looked down and laughed. This would be a better
world for children if the parents had to eat the spinach.

-Groucho Marx, "Animal Crackers"

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:36:15 GMT, Chris Zakes <moondrgn@austin.rr.com>
wrote:


> This is taken from the introduction to A.V.B. Norman's "The Rapier and
> Small-Sword". He quotes a law proclaimed by Mary Tudor and Prince
> Philip, dated March 17th, 1557.
>
> "...and that from henceforth no person or persons of what estate or
> condition so ever he or they be do use or wear by night or by day nor
> sell any sword or rapier above the length of a yard and a half quarter
> in the blade at the most, ..."

Interesting. A yard and an eighth (36.5 inches) is pretty close to
90cm, the maximum legal length of the modern foil blade.

-Mark-

In rec.sport.fencing on Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:49:04 -0400
Trim Plus Expert <trimplus@bellnet.ca> wrote:

[an odd name for someone who doesn't trim posts...]
>
>
> The weapon that was the most effective against plate was the "estoque" a
> kind of long rapier wich is the successor of the two handed sword that was
> to heavy for thrusting and begin to tend to a more lightweight weapon. later

Considering the manuals we have and many pictures show bastard swords
being used against plate, I'm interested to know why you say this. How
many were using estocs and where?

> since making an estoc was a lot expensive they used to repoint the blades to
> save money and with this new weapon (called rapier) the winner was more
> often the one with a repointed weapon. If you read the treatise of the
> paradox of defence by George Silver, the rapier that he describes is
> actually an estoc, if you prefer rapiero or dress sword of spain. Indeed the

What evidence do you have for this, considering there are many extant
rapiers and descriptions of rapiers? Are they *all* cut down something
elses?

Zebee

"Zebee Johnstone" <zebee@zip.com.au> wrote in message
news:slrnbigat6.lmr.zebee@zeus.zipworld.com.au...
> In rec.sport.fencing on Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:49:04 -0400
> Trim Plus Expert <trimplus@bellnet.ca> wrote:
>
> [an odd name for someone who doesn't trim posts...]
> >
> >
> > The weapon that was the most effective against plate was the "estoque" a
> > kind of long rapier wich is the successor of the two handed sword that
was
> > to heavy for thrusting and begin to tend to a more lightweight weapon.
later
>
> Considering the manuals we have and many pictures show bastard swords
> being used against plate, I'm interested to know why you say this. How
> many were using estocs and where?
>
> > since making an estoc was a lot expensive they used to repoint the
blades to
> > save money and with this new weapon (called rapier) the winner was more
> > often the one with a repointed weapon. If you read the treatise of the
> > paradox of defence by George Silver, the rapier that he describes is
> > actually an estoc, if you prefer rapiero or dress sword of spain. Indeed
the
>
> What evidence do you have for this, considering there are many extant
> rapiers and descriptions of rapiers? Are they *all* cut down something
> elses?

As far as I'm aware, and I may well be corrected by the more knowledgeable
people here, the estoc (or tuck in England) was a specialised triangular
bladed spike on a handle designed for punching through fifteenth century
armour and developed during the Italian civil wars. However the rapier (the
name at least) derives from the Spanish term 'espada do robera' or sword of
the robe, that is something to wear with soft clothes rather than harness.

The earliest rapiers I have seen records of are also late fifteenth century,
but they are definitely not estocs, invariably having cutting edges.

In other words the estoc is almost the end of the cycle for specialist heavy
'arming swords' and the rapier is the start of the cycle for dress swords.

--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three

"Trim Plus Expert" <trimplus@bellnet.ca> wrote in
news:7UQVa.4298$537.675892@news20.bellglobal.com:

> I agree with some of the points you mentioned but not all.
> The weapon that was the most effective against plate was the "estoque"
> a kind of long rapier

Estocs are not any kind of rapier at all. They are armor-piercing spikes
on handles. The cross sections are distinct from those of rapiers.

> lightweight weapon. later since making an estoc was a lot expensive
> they used to repoint the blades to save money and with this new weapon
> (called rapier)

Citation?

If you read the treatise of the paradox of defence by George
> Silver, the rapier that he describes is actually an estoc,

Evidence?


> prefer rapiero or dress sword of spain. Indeed the weapon wasnt
> sufficient for the duel.

So why was the rapier so popular for the duel. I've got a theory
regarding Silver's opinion of the rapier. England was a backwater in the
16th century, even under the reign of Elizabeth. Spain was the Great
Power of Europe. Thus, the rapier instructors who made it to England were
probably just the cast-offs who couldn't find work anywhere else.
Silver's opinion of rapier was formed by watching the students of these
men.

> Second the saber was more in use in army an
> cavalry since slashing moves are more instinctive and are easier for
> a fast learn.

In opposition to this reason, I put forth that a thrusting sword is of
very limited use in the cavalry charge. An issue of Hammerterz Forum goes
into this in some detail, relating instances of British cavalry burying
their thrusting sabres to the hilt into Russians during the Crimean War.

Mark C. Orton responded to Chris Zakes answering William Black in response
to Chris Zakes following Ken who replied to Joseph Kormann answering Ken who
milked the cow with the crumpled horn that swallowed the spider to catch the
fly connected to the thigh bone, with men on first or first and second with
less than two outs, if married filing jointly and declaring less than $400
on Schedule B, line 36, or when pronounced "ay", as in "neighbor" and
"weigh", as the cheese stands alone, world without end. Do not pass go, do
not collect $200. Burma-Shave.

> > "...and that from henceforth no person or persons of what estate or
> > condition so ever he or they be do use or wear by night or by day nor
> > sell any sword or rapier above the length of a yard and a half quarter
> > in the blade at the most, ..."
>
> Interesting. A yard and an eighth (36.5 inches) is pretty close to
> 90cm, the maximum legal length of the modern foil blade.

Unfortunately, a yard and an eighth is 40.5 inches, or about 102.87 cm.

Jay Rudin

"Bryan J. Maloney" <cavaggione@sbcglobal.net.spam.must.die.com> wrote in
message news:Xns93C8C53B7666Edogfaceinsightbbcom@206.141.1 93.32...

> So why was the rapier so popular for the duel. I've got a theory
> regarding Silver's opinion of the rapier. England was a backwater in the
> 16th century, even under the reign of Elizabeth. Spain was the Great
> Power of Europe. Thus, the rapier instructors who made it to England were
> probably just the cast-offs who couldn't find work anywhere else.
> Silver's opinion of rapier was formed by watching the students of these
> men.

I doubt that.

England at the time was an emergent power with certainly the highest sea
going combat technology of the day, there were links to many of the great
European courts and Philip of Spain himself proposed marriage to Elizabeth.

The Italian sword masters of the day who came to England were tempted there
by cold hard cash, as they were all over Europe. For example Fabrice went
to Copenhagen, others went elsewhere.

--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three

Zebee Johnstone wrote:

>And your understanding of mechanics. My fencing master can do all sorts
>of fast fancy moves with my 40" blade 2.2lb rapier, including lightning
>changes of direction with cuts and one-twos. Fast parries, beat attacks,
>all of that. He says it is because he works with the balance of the
>sword, and it does the work.
>
>
I asked a question to another NG where a weapon should be balanced. The
reply I got also had this link:
http://www.musketeer.org/Garrick/Bla...c_article.html
which I found to be useful! The exec summary is a good balance point is
22.67% from the hilt of the weapon to the tip (guard, grip, etc
included). I tested it and found that a weapon balanced here does feel
'lighter'.

Passing info along...

--
Amy and Joseph Kormann

Amy & Joseph Kormann <ajkormann@monmouth.com> wrote in
news:bgche7$c6h$1@news.monmouth.com:

> Zebee Johnstone wrote:
>
>>And your understanding of mechanics. My fencing master can do all sorts
>>of fast fancy moves with my 40" blade 2.2lb rapier, including lightning
>>changes of direction with cuts and one-twos. Fast parries, beat
attacks,
>>all of that. He says it is because he works with the balance of the
>>sword, and it does the work.
>>
>>
> I asked a question to another NG where a weapon should be balanced. The
> reply I got also had this link:
> http://www.musketeer.org/Garrick/Bla...c_article.html
> which I found to be useful! The exec summary is a good balance point is
> 22.67% from the hilt of the weapon to the tip (guard, grip, etc
> included). I tested it and found that a weapon balanced here does feel
> 'lighter'.

Of course, balanced is not balanced if the balance is the wrong balance.
A best balance for a cut is not a best balance for a thrust.

William Black wrote:

> Of course most combat in the UK is battle re-enactment and so the sword is
> rarely used, but that's a different argument for a different camp-fire....
>

Ok, I'll bite. Why is the sword rarely used? Wouldn't be because the UK
laws now'll do anyone that has anything more remotely dangerous than a
letter opener and it had better be a blunt ended letter opener.

J.

"Jonathan Jefferies" <jonathanjefferies@alamedanet.net> wrote in message
news:3F30001A.1040400@alamedanet.net...
> William Black wrote:
>
> >
> > Well, you did ask...
> >
> > In reality people don't tend to use swords on battlefields for fighting,
> > they are too flimsy and too short.
>
> Not my area of expertise/interest but what was the preferred tool at the
> time? A pole axe or something long, lance like?

The Wars of the Roses people wander about with a marvellous selection of two
handed polearms, mainly 'English Bills' but also various hammers and picks
and other devices for punching holes in plate armour. The English Civil War
lot use a pike, which is a sixteen to eighteen foot spear that requires a
rather specialised drill and lots of friends to use effectively.

> > As for the 'letter opener' crack, as far as I'm aware there are no
> > restrictions on anyone owning any edged weapon, and the only
restrictions
> > affecting purchase affect under sixteen year old kids and stuff like
sword
> > sticks, flick knives and other street crap.
>
> well, ok, it was a crack of sorts. Last year about this time I was on 3
week
> work period in the UK and visited with a friend who's a police inspector
in
> Bristol. That evening at the pub with his lady friend who was studying for
her
> ?sergeant? exam I was regaled with all sorts of stories. How am I - dumb
> yank - to know when they were winding me up? According to them if I was
stopped,
> possession of my swiss army knife was definite proof that I was up to no
good.
> I didn't dare let on that I had a 3 inch buck knife in my pocket for fear
of
> being marched straight off to jail. =

Well I habitually carry a Gerber Tool and a 3" Buck knife, mainly because I
need them for work. However carrying a blade of any length for no good
purpose will get you prosecuted.

Then again, I drive a Land Rover, I imagine it's legitimate for me to
carrry around a full tool kit complete with axes so I can do running
repairs...

However the only case that has hit the headlines was someone carrying a five
inch, fixed bladed, carpet cutting knife into a pub one night. So far
nobody's been busted for carrying a Swiss Army Knife, or even that bikers
favorite, the aforementioned three inch Buck...

> > There are a number of excellent swordsmiths making weapons for
historical
> > fencing, which is a growing activity in the UK, including Leon Paul,
> > Armour Class, Bailif Forge, Rent a Sword and many others.
>
> It's also fun to go looking for antique pieces. I've even found a nice
> bare blade, possible 1700 or 1800's,
> at that place (the only that specializes in weapons) on Portobellow Road.
> Course carrying it around London I made sure it was wrapped and labeled as
> sporting goods.

I tend to haunt provincial auction houses myself, it's cheaper and more
exciting and every so often you get something that nobody but you recognises
is worth money )

--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three

In one of the Discworld books, Terry Pratchett discusses the "Monks of
Cool". They spend years on a mountaintop comtemplating what it measn to be
cool. When their initiation is ended, they are given a final test. They
are taken to a large room, filled with every type of clothing ever worn, and
asked, "What would be the coolest thing to wear?"

The correct answer, of course, is, "Hey, man, whatever I put on."

--------------------

What's the best combat sword? Whichever sword I pick up.

Jay Rudin