Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

PeterGustafsson · 02-20-2005, 01:47 PM

Hi!

It has always bugged me that so few foil and epee parts are compatible. For instance: the epee tip thread is a M4, while the foil is an M3.5. This necessitates buying two thread cutters (don´t remember the correct English word right now), and the M3.5 is quite uncommon in ordinary hardware shops, even here in metric country. What is the motivation for this?

Why can one not have more compatible parts? Sure it would necessitate some rules changes, and cause problems for backwards compatibility, but would not the simplification for the clubs (and fencers) who do both weapons outweigh that? How about tip scews, tip barrels, etc?

Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

ElMariachi · 02-20-2005, 08:27 PM

It's a good idea. I don't see why it shouldn't happen..

CvilleFencer · 02-20-2005, 09:07 PM

Essentially what it seems that you are asking is why do we have two different styles of epee and foil tip. The main reasons have to do with balance and need. Epee tips have to be big enough to use the two spring system. The heavier tips are also a bit mroe resistant to damage that the larger, heavier epees can cause.

Foil tips only need one spring, and a weaker one at that. Also an epee tip on the end of a foil would really make the balance odd and throw off the use of the blade unless it was very stiff. Also keep in mind that the rules state what the dimensions must be for the surface area of the tip for both weapons.

In short, there are some very good reasons for keeping them the way they are, and while parts compatability and cost control of the fencers is a laudable goal, taken to far your logic would give us only one type of blade (say a square section foil) for all three weapons and so forth. We have different blades, uniform parts and so forth. Different tips is not that big a deal to me, and since the FIE seems to screw up everything they touch, I would not want them looking to "help" me out in any way...

DHCJr · 02-21-2005, 11:58 AM

You should have just put this as a post to the Fepee post. The Foil and Epee are 2 different weapons. Think of this, why do we use 750 gram weight for Epee and a 500 weight for Foil? It is the same reason as the thread size. The blades are different sizes. Theoretically, they determined what pressure would it take to penetrate with a blade of a different size. What size threads do you need on a blade of a certain size? Unless you totally change the dimensions of Foil it could not be done. It would be easier to change Epee. You can remove material easier than you can add material, but then both would be 3.5 x 0.60. From what you said that would not make you happy.

Prometheus · 02-21-2005, 01:20 PM

How about using electronic parts that are more common. For instance, would there be any technical problem associated with using BNC connectors and coaxial cable for bodychords (foil and eppe), or two wire, shielded twisted pair for eppe chords?

DHCJr · 02-21-2005, 02:13 PM

Actually there have been some very different connectors, especially during the early days of Electric Epee. For example the use of Amphenol (Microphone) connector was used for both bodycord as well as floor cords.

The 2 main considerations are flexibility and resistence of the cord as well as the following M.5.3.

For those who have been around a few years, the BNC connector was required for fencing, at least for one weapon back in the late 80's, early 90's.

Prometheus · 02-21-2005, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DHCJr

For those who have been around a few years, the BNC connector was required for fencing, at least for one weapon back in the late 80's, early 90's.

Was that for a body or just the capteur socket?

DHCJr · 02-21-2005, 11:19 PM

Since I said it was required, I think you can guess it wasn't the bodycord. There has never been a required type of bodycord for any weapon, even Epee. All it requires is the part connecting to the reel is specified. You could have and there have been several different types connecting to the weapon.

You did get that it was Sabre. Though someone could have used it for a bodycord, but it was never required.

D+F+P=Hadouken! · 02-22-2005, 10:47 AM

to solve the foil debounce issue, would it work to use epee blades wired up with foil points? It would slow down foil, which is what roche wants, making it more spectator friendly, and solve the debounce issue, not to mention they would last longer, being thicker and stronger.

shango · 02-22-2005, 10:58 AM

You mean foil blades wired with epee points?

CvilleFencer · 02-22-2005, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

to solve the foil debounce issue, would it work to use epee blades wired up with foil points? It would slow down foil, which is what roche wants, making it more spectator friendly, and solve the debounce issue, not to mention they would last longer, being thicker and stronger.

Using foil points would not help at all on an epee, as you would still have very soft springs and the inherant problems would still be the same. The Magioratti tip may have helped, since it had a much longer travel and a different spring setup, but that is still a bit up in the air. Using epees would not do much to slow the game down either really, since the reasons foilists can get away with such big, wild attacks is that they have ROW to protect them and because of their target area they do not have to worry about being sniped on the hand or leg coming in.

They only way to fix the debounce problem is to quicken the debounce time by at least half. The problem seems to be that the FIE is not going to admit that they screwed the pooch and they seem to just want to try bandaid fixes like the stupid chestplaste rule. We may not have seen the end of it all either. I would not be surprised if they tried stiffer springs and some such as a fix, if they try anything at all. They seem content for the moment to blame chestplates, tip tape and poor distance/point control sunspots for all the good hits with no light.

mrbiggs · 02-22-2005, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

to solve the foil debounce issue, would it work to use epee blades wired up with foil points? It would slow down foil, which is what roche wants, making it more spectator friendly, and solve the debounce issue, not to mention they would last longer, being thicker and stronger.

Or maybe we could just make stronger, less flexible foil blades. I think that might help somewhat with some of the new timing problems.

CvilleFencer · 02-22-2005, 11:52 AM

It would not really help that much. As much as flexable blades bend off, super stiff blades would bounce or glance off. They would also run a slightly higher risk of more injuries, since the harder you make steel the more brittel it becomes and hard things with no give slamming into soft tissue is less than fun. Stiffer blades do help a bit, especially for the more defensive fencers, but it is a bandaid measure, not a fix.

Mergs · 02-22-2005, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Or maybe we could just make stronger, less flexible foil blades. I think that might help somewhat with some of the new timing problems.

And what good would that do? We don't check for flexibility as it is! And to do so will make for enormous delays in getting equipment checked. I would suspect that the majority of blades in use today wouldn't pass current specs. So where does that leave us?

I think that we have shot ourselves in the foot by trying to eliminate something that was dying anyway. Oh well, it isn't the first time in history that has happened.