(FOIL) Rule quirk between USA & British rules?

[Genjuro]

Just found something interesting in the thread of Dripping wet's marching attacks:

According to my copy of the rules (official English translation, obtained from the British Fencing Association, with the latest updates), Bill Oliver's definition of a compound attack (t.56) is actually incorrect:
"...the arm is not bent between the successive actions of the attack and the initiation of the lunge or the fleche" (Bill Oliver's version).

The BFA version reads:
"...the arm is not bent during the successive actions of the attack and the initiation of the lunge or the fleche".

Looked this one up in the US(2002, rev C) and British rules (2004).
And this is indeed the chase! Since I'm quite curious, I also looked the
French version (at www.fie.ch) Which state on the compound attack (t.56, a 2) :

L'attaque composeé est correctement exécutée quand le bras s'allongeant dans la présentation de la première feint, la pointe menace la surface valable sans raccourcir le bras pendant l'exécution des mouvements successifs de l'attaque et le déclenchement de la fente ou de la flèche.

And according to the French dictionary, 'pendant' means 'during'.

I'm wondering two things here: Can this be a cause for the huge interpretation differences that seem to exist here on the board?

And second, keeping t.56 points 2 & 4 in mind, can one say with foil that a compound attack keeps ROW only when the arm is continously extending?

ps: sorry for opening this can of worms

[esskreemr]

L'attaque composeé est correctement exécutée quand le bras s'allongeant dans la présentation de la première feint, la pointe menace la surface valable sans raccourcir le bras pendant l'exécution des mouvements successifs de l'attaque et le déclenchement de la fente ou de la flèche.

The composed attack is correctly carried out when the arm lengthens in the presentation of the first feints, the point threatens the valid target area without shortening the arm during the execution of the successive movements of the attack and the release of the feint or the fleche.

[DHCJr]

This is very interesting for a number of reasons. If you have a 2000 version of the USFA rule book you will see the translation is different. That is because it was NOT translated from the French version, but from the British version. For example, you will see spools, instead of reels.

Another interesting item is why did they decided to now translate it here. Considering that ever since they switched from only French being the official language of the FIE to French, Spanish and English as the official languages the rule books of France, Spain and Great Britian have been the official language translation of the rule book.

This can be done by switching the language of the FIE web site to English or Spanish and going to the rules. It will state that.

You certainly have opened a can of worms.

[R. Exnicios]

The Rules have always been poorly written and poorly translated. There is always a few word translated incorrectly or not at all.

i.e. "....t.32At the expiration of the regulation fencing time, .... even a ‘coup lance’ is not valid. "

okay what is a coup lance?

I believe it translates directly to "Blow Launches" but couldn't this be described in english?

just food for thought

Cheers

[GGK]

I'm wondering two things here: Can this be a cause for the huge interpretation differences that seem to exist here on the board?

No.
>99.9% of fencers don't read the rulebook, much less study the rulebook. (Or compare translations) What they do tend to do is parrot what their coaches taught them, what they want and what they perceive referee’s calls to be.

G

[schlager7]

"Coup lance': a launched hit; an attack that starts before a stop in play but lands after. Valid for normal halts, but not valid at end of time."

This particular definition is directly from the glossay on this web site.

[R. Exnicios]

"Coup lance': a launched hit; an attack that starts before a stop in play but lands after. Valid for normal halts, but not valid at end of time."

This particular definition is directly from the glossay on this web site.

Yes. and wouldn't it be nice if that was in the rule book instead of "coup Lance"

[veeco]

Sure, and then you could translate "fleche" into "arrow" ;-).

-> Yes, I make fun of our "language police" too ;-)

[DHCJr]

They both have what I consider a poor translation of M.25.3. That is the body must be one color, not the trunk or torso. How many white lames have you seen that matches the rest of the uniform?

[JAnthony]

This question also came up in the very long thread last year on ROW:
http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10352
I brought it up in post #75, page 3.

[Genjuro]

Thanks, it is quite an interesting (and long!) thread.
I'm surprised that it lasted 11 pages.
Odd though that there are never such lenghty discussions about sabre conventions.