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cfaustus · 02-15-2005, 09:29 AM

I have recently been receiving a number of inquiries about the obtaining or construction of Italian foils.

As a bit of assistance I posted our most recent information on the construction of a high quality one on our club's forum:

http://kabal.cfssda.org/modules.php?...viewtopic&t=17

In the interest of extending this information to the greater fencing community, I decided to also post it here.

We just got the new parts from the different suppliers last week and have put together some pretty nice Italian foils.

Here are my notes on the current state of parts:

Blades: Fencing Post appears to have some Dummy Electric Itlaian foil blades which are actually stiffer than any of the dry italian blades we have ever gotten. The reason for this is that the cross section is closer to square than rectangular.

Gavigliano/archetti assembly: Negrini's is of finer make and the archetti are longer, allowing more room for longer fingers. They also seem to all come pre drilled and then are rivetted in various ways to the guards. Uhlmann's are sturdy, but rather crude compared to the Negrini models. They are welded onto the guard and this weld has been known in the past to come apart under normal wear and tear rather quickly. We drilled and riveted the Uhlmann Archetti to the guards and this seems to be as good a join as the Negrini ones. The Uhlmann gavigliano has a smaller aperture to accept the grip and as such the opening needs to be ground wider (we use a Dremel) to accept Negrini or Rockwell grips.

Guard (coccia): Negrini has two types, one is steel the other is duraluminum. I have one of the duralum one and it has lasted for 7 years of nigh constant use... although it certainly looks like it. The duralum guards have rolled edges which is a nice comfort factor. The Steel gaurds are heavier (offsetting the heavier blades) and hold their shape better. Negrini steel guards do not appear to currently have rolled edges and in fact, the edge extends for about a quarter inch toward the hand. For fencers with logner fingers this has caused some discomfort which was solved by filing away this extension and rounding the edge as best as possible. The Uhlmann guards are steel AND have rolled edges.

Grips: Tom Rockwell makes the best Italian grips out there and I will not recomend any other. It is closest in dimension to the Negrini grip, although I am sure Tom would make a grip to whatever size you desire. Uhlmann's grips are longer... which is possibly an advantage for those of you who like to use a wriststrap. Also, by putting the weight further from the guard, it allows for the use of a slightly lighter pommel (viz. Torque)

Pommels: These are usually matched to the grip (Negrini for a Negrini, Uhlmann for an Uhlmann). The ones from Tom can be used for any grip as he will make them to your specs. He even has different weighted options. With these you can find that perfect 'sweet-spot' of balance for your weapon and style. He will thread to your preference as well. I like to order 6MM from Tom and then just rethread the tang of blades as necessary (it is easier to rethread a tang than it is to rethread a pommel).

For those who desire an electric Italian foil, wiring the blade is the same as with a French, although you must take special care that the insulation is solid at the point it protrudes through the coccia due to the contact with the ricasso. Adding a socket is simply an additional exercise in drilling and rivetting.

Our next step is to see if we can get just the gavigliano/archetti from Negrini and just the guard (coccia) from Uhlmann and join the two.

For any of you who do not have the means to make one yourself, the CFS at Marquette can construct one for you. Email us at mail@cfssda.org to discuss details.

cfaustus · 02-16-2005, 01:36 PM

Negrini has just sent me an email to say that they will happily sell the gavigliano sepparately, but that they will have to get back to me as to the price.

Kettu · 02-19-2005, 07:37 PM

Perhaps others disregarded this thread, however I have taken interest in procuring an Italian foil, and thank you for the information listed above. I have been considering the acquisition of a leather wrist strap and an Italian grip from whoever it is associated with that sword academy in NY, though I never received replies to my emails containing questions. Perhaps you have had better luck?

cfaustus · 02-23-2005, 12:16 PM

We actually usually have good luck contacting Kevin Dougherty and Tom Rockwell at Tri Cities, although I know they get busy from time to time. If they got your message, they will get back to you. It just might not be as fast as you are used to. They are not a professional company but rather a group of fencers who put this stuff together in their spare time. I am glad you found my post helpful. If there is anything else I can do, please let me know.

I Miss My Car · 02-26-2005, 01:55 AM

Someone at my club has an Italian foil. I checked it out a couple nights ago and now im curious, with a some questions.

1) Do you need a special blade to use with an italian grip or can I just use any kind of blade?

2) Does a wrist strap limit finger control of the blade? It seems that you would be trading in some point control for extra power.

3) How does an italian grip without a wrist strap compare to a pistol grip as far as power? I would guess that without the wrist strap it would be in between a french and pistol as far as strength in beats.

4) Any other advantages/disadvantages between an italian grip and french and pistol grips?

Cavatione · 02-26-2005, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Miss My Car

1) Do you need a special blade to use with an italian grip or can I just use any kind of blade?

You need a blade with true ricasso

Quote:

2) Does a wrist strap limit finger control of the blade? It seems that you would be trading in some point control for extra power.

It just changes the way you are supposed to fence. Less fingers, more wrist.

Quote:

3) How does an italian grip without a wrist strap compare to a pistol grip as far as power? I would guess that without the wrist strap it would be in between a french and pistol as far as strength in beats.

It is the pistol grip that is in between the french and italian one. The italian grip historically come from the traditional sword grip from 16th/17th century and it is used for a more forceful and less academical fencing.
One of the main complaints of the french fencers in front of the italian grip was that italians always fenced like they were "on the ground" and usually beated the hell out the french, too stiff in their academical jokes...

Quote:

4) Any other advantages/disadvantages between an italian grip and french and pistol grips?

That all depends what kind of a fencer you are... The french grip is more oriented toward gainings of the blade and transportations; the italian one is more oriented for forceful entries or counter-times (tipycal of the italian school) or parries with strong, angulard ripostes...

What I wrote has non pretention of being non Bible. Take it as a personal consideration supported by historical facts.

Robert (2) · 02-26-2005, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Miss My Car

3) How does an italian grip without a wrist strap compare to a pistol grip as far as power? I would guess that without the wrist strap it would be in between a french and pistol as far as strength in beats

I would refine Cavatione's comments slightly. On movements where the blade is advancing and contact is made (graze, time-hit, some pris-de-fer) the Italian is stronger. On purely lateral movements (beats) the pistol is stronger.

Robert

DHCJr · 02-26-2005, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavatione

You need a blade with true ricasso

This is not quite true. In the U.S. it is difficult to get a blade with a true ricasso, especially if you want a FIE blade. In Italy and Cavatione would know better, I don't know if you can get a FIE blade. There are a number of places to get false ricasso and with them you can use any blade with a French tang. You might do a search on Italian ricasso and find post that talk of where you can get one.

Kettu · 02-26-2005, 05:41 PM

I believe that Uhlmann has started producing Italian foil (true ricasso) FIE blades some time ago; whether the same can be said about epee I cannot say, though I speculate that any such production has not commenced. Perhaps Negrini carries FIE Italian blades?

If anyone has tried these Uhlmann blades, do please share any comments in regard to their quality and performance.

Cavatione · 02-28-2005, 02:48 AM

Uhnm, I think both Carmimari ( http://www.carmimari.com/ ) and Negrini ( http://www.negrini.com/ ) carrie blades with true ricasso. If you don't see them advertised on the on-line price list, send a direct inquiry via email...

cfaustus · 03-01-2005, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kettu

I believe that Uhlmann has started producing Italian foil (true ricasso) FIE blades some time ago; whether the same can be said about epee I cannot say, though I speculate that any such production has not commenced. Perhaps Negrini carries FIE Italian blades?

If anyone has tried these Uhlmann blades, do please share any comments in regard to their quality and performance.

As I mentioned the Uhlmann bladesI have used have all been foil. Over all the quality is quite nice. With regards to the epees, I do not believe that they currently have italian epees with true ricassi. I know that when we asked them to make a large order of dry, true ricasso epees, they looked into it and determined that it would cost too much. But we also had some other specs which might have caused a confusion withn the language barrier. They have been very good overall with entertaining our proposals and probably would reconsider it. I own sevral electric Italian epees with true ricassi and I love them... I do not know what I will do when the blades break!

Also regarding use of a false ricasso, if you must use a false ricasso, the one from Tom Rockwell at Tri Cities Academy of the Sword is simply the best.

DHCJr · 03-02-2005, 12:13 AM

It seems the German President Gordon Rapp has sent a similar letter to the FIE President, that the timings need to be rethought. Also he considers the reason for the problems is the insufficient testing under real conditions, the results of which the results have, furthermore, not been notified to us in any way.

LUDICROUS · 03-26-2005, 06:40 PM

The fencing post sells loads of italian foil stuff. Guards, grips, etc. Their blades are made by France-Lames.

Here.

Italian epee stuff, too.

DHCJr · 03-26-2005, 08:36 PM

If this is true, then it is old blades. France-Lame has been out of business for a few years now. Maybe they haven't updated their web site.

Moses · 03-26-2005, 09:39 PM

The Fencing Post has updated parts of their website recently. I don't know if they've done all of it, so it's still worth checking if they still have old Italian stuff.

-Da Mose