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duel mom · 02-14-2005, 04:04 PM

When the director is not sure a toe touch landed should he/she ask the fencer if he felt it and go with that response or throw it out because he's not sure?

darius · 02-14-2005, 04:28 PM

There's no such thing as "not sure". You've got to make a decision as to whether it hit floor and stick with it, whether it was actually correct or not.

Some fencers will acknowledge that the touch hit them, and the ref usually takes that into consideration and reverses the call. Usually that doesn't happen at NACs, but I've seen Eleanor Leighton acknowledge that she hit tape when she was up 14-13 against Keri Byerts in a final.

If you're talking about a grounded strip, the ref can test the strip to make sure it's grounded. If the fencer who received the dubious touch was hugging the tape, it's a judgement call. They might complain, but that's a tactical downside of hugging the side of the strip. At worst, a fencer should only lose one touch due to ref error in this case -- if they feel that will be a problem, they have the right to request floor judges.

No grounded strip? Take your best guess.

Also, keep your eye on the fencer who was hit. They might give you some indication as to whether or not the foot was hit, by grimancing, or shaking it out.

darius

kalivor · 02-14-2005, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duel mom

When the director is not sure a toe touch landed should he/she ask the fencer if he felt it and go with that response or throw it out because he's not sure?

If it's one light, I would pause a moment to allow the hit fencer to possibly concede it, then throw it out if they don't.

If both lights come on, I would ask the fencer who has *definitely* scored the touch whether they would like both hits to be annulled, or to have them scored as a double touch.

I would never ask a fencer to make a call for me, nor would I like it if my referee asked either me or my opponent to make a call for them.

telkanuru · 02-14-2005, 04:32 PM

Call what you see, and hope the fencers are sportsman-like enough to acknowledge if needed. I know I do, in both situations.

Allen Evans · 02-14-2005, 04:55 PM

When I'm refereeing on a non-grounded strip (often the occurance in my division) I announce to the fencers before every pool and every DE:

"We are fencing on a non-grounded surface. If you do not acknowledge a floor hit, I will make the decision about the validity of the hit and there is NO appeal."

~shrug~ I still feel that the onus is on me to make the call, but since I've been saying that, I get fewer arguments.

Allen Evans
Dominion Fencing

chiz · 02-14-2005, 04:57 PM

If the light is on, add one to the score, unless the director can confirm by his observation, the floor was hit first - rule "t.66 1. In arriving at his judgement, the Referee will disregard touches..." In some cases the director can allow time for the winner of the touch to acknowledge a floor hit, but the director can not annul a touch unless the touch occoures outside the rules based on his direct observations and he can not award a touch if the scoring device does not work.

The fencer can always ask for the rule comittee to refresh the directors memory about annulling a touch.

acaba · 02-14-2005, 06:08 PM

I agree that it is the ref's call and only the ref's call. I have been at NAC's where a fencer acknowledged he was hit, but the ref still threw it out because he said it hit the floor. No ammount of bellyaching by the hitter got him his touch back. I have seen a fencer who acknowledged that he hit the floor, but still got the touch because the ref saw it hit body. It is really the ref’s call. If you do not see the touch on the body, and think the touch was on the floor, it should be thrown out.

darius · 02-14-2005, 07:41 PM

It is the ref's call.

But unlike a ROW call where the ref's perception is far more likely to be correct than a fencer's, the fencer may be in a better position to know if they were touched, hit the floor, or himself.

If there's an immediate acknowledgement, a lot of refs take that into account. In the Byerts-Leighton bout I mentioned earlier, Ms. Leighton would have won the bout by not acknowledging that she hit floor.

She acknowledged that her hit was not material immediately. Given that information, the referee chose to not award the touch. Perhaps that wasn't correct from a procedural standpoint, but from a fairness standpoint, and honoring the spirit of the fencing, it was correct.

darius

Achilles · 02-14-2005, 08:20 PM

I hate not fencing on grounded pistes for this reason.

Prometheus · 02-14-2005, 08:46 PM

Then there is the situation where the fencer hits thier own foot.

haroldbuck · 02-14-2005, 09:38 PM

You NEVER ask the fencers what happened. First of all, this may have occurred to you, but they can't be trusted to tell the truth since they have a vested interest in the call. Second, even if they're being truthful, they might just be wrong. Finally, it makes you look like you don't have a freakin' clue.

Can you imagine an official in the NFL asking an offensive lineman, "Did you hold him on that play?" An NCAA basketball referee asking a player, "Did you foul her?" No, I didn't think so.

duel mom · 02-14-2005, 10:35 PM

Haroldbuck, I am totally with you! I had to hold my tongue to keep from calling from the sidelines "LIAR!" to my son's opponent when the director asked him, "Were you hit?" And I wanted to sidle up to that fencing college kid later to ask him how dignified he felt about that call.

Keep 'em honest and don't ask, directors!

chiz · 02-14-2005, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acaba

...I have seen a fencer who acknowledged that he hit the floor, but still got the touch because the ref saw it hit body. It is really the ref’s call. If you do not see the touch on the body, and think the touch was on the floor, it should be thrown out.

...and think the touch was on the floor ... you didn't see it touch the floor? What do your ears tell you? What line was the tip on? What could the tip hid before the floor? Could it hit the shoe sole, then floor? Then it may be good. Look at the rule, you use your judgement, not what you think but what you know. And if you don't know then the light stands.

Chiz

Hurriranger · 02-15-2005, 04:58 AM

well if the fencer felt it hit his toe, and he says so, i don't see why the point shouldn't be awarded.

Achilles · 02-15-2005, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hurriranger

well if the fencer felt it hit his toe, and he says so, i don't see why the point shouldn't be awarded.

I completely agree with this. In terms of hitting your own toe, if you can get away with it, that is great! One of the guys who I fenced with, used to beat people that way, he would get to 4-4 and then hit his own toe.

haroldbuck · 02-15-2005, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hurriranger

well if the fencer felt it hit his toe, and he says so, i don't see why the point shouldn't be awarded.

Sometimes the fencer does not have a good perspective to see. The referee may have seen it hit the floor and then the foot. In that case, why should the referee award a touch he knows is invalid?

haroldbuck · 02-15-2005, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Achilles

I completely agree with this. In terms of hitting your own toe, if you can get away with it, that is great! One of the guys who I fenced with, used to beat people that way, he would get to 4-4 and then hit his own toe.

So, cheating is great? You're pathetic. Why don't you just bribe the officials while you're at it.

Alain · 02-15-2005, 11:59 AM

Hey,

If the light comes up when fencing on a metallic piste, unless a fault can be proved you must award the point.

If you're fencing on an un-grounded floor, though, then must either annul the hit or let it stand; as Darius says 'not sure' isn't really good enough! Unless either fencer owes up to what actually happened, you should annul the hit... and then call for floor spots for the remainder of the fight.

If there's a double hit, with one of them in doubt, then the fencer who's hit definately landed can make the decision whether to have both points awarded or annulled.

Normally, though, fencers should own up to whether they hit or were hit or not. If there's one thing I can't stand it's cheats. They should be shot.

DHCJr · 02-15-2005, 12:56 PM

Alain, you might look at T.66. On a finals strip the area outside the competition area is grounded, but on a normal strip, that is not so. Picture the fencers at the edge of a grounded strip. The referee can annul a touch, if they believe the touch landed on the ground first. They do not need to show a fault. They can determine it landed outside the grounded area.

D+F+P=Hadouken! · 02-15-2005, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Achilles

I completely agree with this. In terms of hitting your own toe, if you can get away with it, that is great! One of the guys who I fenced with, used to beat people that way, he would get to 4-4 and then hit his own toe.

hey, its slimy, but if winning means do everything within the rules, then do it. I have no problem with doing absolutely everything I can to win, even if its frowned upon as cheap. Breaking the rules however, I'm not gonna do.