Pool Bouts

[telkanuru]

I have recently encountered the fact that I am much better at winning DE (that is, 15 touche) bouts as opposed to pool (5 touche) bouts. This is not beneficial, especially at collegiate events, where the latter are fenced almost exclusively. Does any one have any general (epee) advice for both tactics and strategy to win 5 touche bouts?

[prototoast]

I have pretty much the opposite problem (though I fence sabre). I pretty much only train for 5 touch bouts and can't keep it up for longer bouts. Seemingly we should have the solution for each other, but I really don't have any advice for you.

[Zilverzmurfen]

Originally Posted by prototoast

I pretty much only train for 5 touch bouts and can't keep it up for longer bouts.

With the risk of having misunderstood you (in which case you may feel free to just ignore my tips below) I would advise you to, when you train, fence 3x5 touch bouts or 15 touch bouts instead of only 1x5 touch bouts.

[Maeve_Mari]

Actually I agree with Zmurf. I find that training in multiple x5 sessions builds greater endurance. I'll do reps of 5 to 10 x5's at one practice, then follow up at the end of the week with one or two x15s and find my ability to sustain much better and my recovery faster. I believe it's the repetitive x5's that does the strengthening.

[Zilverzmurfen]

Originally Posted by Maeve_Mari

Actually I agree with Zmurf. I find that training in multiple x5 sessions builds greater endurance. I'll do reps of 5 to 10 x5's at one practice, then follow up at the end of the week with one or two x15s and find my ability to sustain much better and my recovery faster. I believe it's the repetitive x5's that does the strengthening.

Yep. (You put it much better than I did, Maeve!)

The longer the bouts at training, the better endurance and 'feel' for the DE in a real competition.

And besides, fencing is so fun, why would you want to stop after just 5 touches?

[veeco]

Try and get a feel for how long 3 minutes last. Fence "theme bouts" in practice where the goal is to score 5 touches in 5 minutes of running clock time. Try and change it so you can go as high as 10 touches in 5 minutes. The goal is to win the bout, and to score your last touch at the last second. This will teach you how to use your time and all your time in a fencing bout.

Get used to setting up touches and taking your time to do it. Don't rush, but know how to put pressure on your opponent and know when to use them, like when they are up 3-2. Do a little bit of statistics: make a list of all the 5 touch bouts you've fenced in the last 6 months / year and try and see why you lost.

Most importantly, try and see if there is a common factor between all of those bouts. Did you lose the first touch on all / most of them? If that's the case it means you have to work on not getting too anxious to even the score when that happens. You have to learn from your mistakes, and try and benefit from them. For example if you lose the first touch on a simple action, try to set it up so that you can make your opponent believe they can do the same action again, but trick them with a counter-time, or a counter-stop hit.

If you find that in a lot of your bouts you often get up 4-2 or 3-1 and then lose, then it means that you perhaps need to learn to relax when you are ahead, or it could be that you loosen up too much and start "resting on your laurels" because you think you've made it all. Make sure you are not losing these bouts because you keep doing the same action and the other guy has you all figured out.

And finally, don't give too much importance to a 5 touch bout, especially in epee. It's so easy to lose to a hack or a one trick pony in a 5 touch bout, that losing just one or two in a pool (or in an NCAA tournament) isn't a big deal overall. If you look at W/L records of top NCAA epee fencers, you will see that the best ones usually have worse records than a lot of good sabre/foil NCAA fencers. It doesn't make them worse fencers, it's just the nature of epee.

I have never fenced NCAA, but in individual tournaments, lot of times, I have had terrible pools in a competition and I ended up placed pretty good anyway. Actually, come to think of it, some of my best results I have had when I had terrible or just average pools.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by Maeve_Mari

Actually I agree with Zmurf. I find that training in multiple x5 sessions builds greater endurance. I'll do reps of 5 to 10 x5's at one practice, then follow up at the end of the week with one or two x15s and find my ability to sustain much better and my recovery faster. I believe it's the repetitive x5's that does the strengthening.

actually what i do now is free fence 'till i'm really really tired then create a scenario like, the bout is tied 13 all, or 12 all or its 13-11 me, or 13-11 the other guy, etc.. and try to get to 15. i think that way you train yourself to deal with the closing stages of some tough DE's when you don't have much energy left but need to keep focus mentally.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by veeco

It doesn't make them worse fencers, it's just the nature of epee.

that why i hate epee but at the same time its why i like it as well. its theatre. anything can happen.

[bjacobs]

Another big part of pool bouts is your warm up. If you get to the DE's to even have any 15 touch bout, you've already gone through pools as a warm up, and are ready to fence well. But the only thing getting you ready for 5 touch bouts is whatever warm up plan you have. It's not enough to jog or stretch, and then do a few touches or actions. You should get lose, get warm, stretch, fence some touches, then fence at least one 5 touch bout trying your hardest to win. Do more than one if it won't tire you out.

[Spike327]

In a DE bout I will usually start very slow, regardless of how my skill level lines up to my opponent's. That is to say, I'll often take someone to 2-2 or 3-3 in the first few minutes. Partly this is because I'm trying to get a feel for their game and their reactions to various things, but it has also caused me to be generally late to 'energize'. When I go to fence 5-touch bouts, the slow start obviously won't cut it. I find that I've got to get energized and thinking sharply before I get on the strip for a 5-touch, otherwise I'll end up on the wrong side of 1-3, 2-3, 2-4, etc.

[mackillian]

There's two of us in the club that will fence until the coach kicks us out. One time that stretched to half an hour.

[Coup de Grace]

Pools against unknown opponents are a challenge. They require quick recon and observation. I find that I have to quickly process any information I pick up, but not rush through the bout based on what I have learned. It is tricky to find the correct tempo.

[Alain]

Lots of good advice above...

Whilst in poules, try to watch the others to see how they fence before you get on. Fights to 5 hits against relatively inexperienced fencers is always a lottery. Keep good distance, don't do anything overly complicated, and in all of your fights take them one hit at a time.

Best of luck

[Monkeyboy]

Originally Posted by Spike327

In a DE bout I will usually start very slow, regardless of how my skill level lines up to my opponent's. I find that I've got to get energized and thinking sharply before I get on the strip for a 5-touch, otherwise I'll end up on the wrong side of 1-3, 2-3, 2-4, etc.

This is how I feel...For safety alone at least do some warm-ups, stretches, and then a few full speed touches, but before the pools start, GET PUMPED! Bring a rubber band and snap it on your wrist untill you feel your blood boil. I used to have an ingrown nail on my left foot, and I found that a quick stomp got me ready to kill at a moment's notice. Sadly, however, it finally healed.

[parrythis]

Originally Posted by Spike327

In a DE bout I will usually start very slow, ... When I go to fence 5-touch bouts, the slow start obviously won't cut it.

I agree with Spike. Do you consider yourself to be an analytical fencer? Do you like to "feel out" your opponent? Try things out to see how they react? Do a few feints with no intention of following through just to learn your opponent's game? You can do that in a 15 touch bout where being down 2 or 3 touches is not the end of the world. In a 5 touch bout, however, you don't have time for that.

Do your analysis of your opponents by watching them fence others. Then, when you are on the piste, just go for it. Fence each point like it's the ONLY point. Get your points quickly, get your wins, then move on to the DE's where you can play the "thinking" game.