Point in Line (Sabre)

[Markstorm]

I fenced an epeeist (lots more experience than me) in sabre and lost. He has a nice point in line which got him a few points on me. I would try to beat his blade, he would disengage and attack. By the end I found ways to beat him (attacking the arm, beating twice, very stuttery footwork) but none of my my methods are optimal. They aren't very efficient because the attack to the arm can be defeated by him lunging with his line and beating twice is generally not a good policy.

I would like to know two things: How to defeat a epeeist who uses PIL in sabre (in other words, someone with really good handwork) and how to incorporate PIL into my game.

--Mark

[sabreur]

Ha, a major problem.

The basic premise is to prepare slowly and don't begin to accelerate until you've already taken the blade. Preparing slowly then attacking the arm is also not a bad option.

The other option is to start your attacks immediately when the ref says "fence." If your opponent doesn't take a step backwards to establish the PIL, you generally will get right of way without having to beat the blade.

To learn to incorporate PIL in your own game effectively, find a foil coach (or failing that, find a willing foilist) and take lessons in disengaging to avoid beats from him/her--it is a basic move in foil, and you can learn a lot about PIL and disengages from a foilist.

MR

[Allen Evans]

I'm going to assume from your post that he was fencing you like an epee fencer: his guard was out and he was constantly threatening you with the point. If this was the case, Sabreur's advice is very apt. You can prepare more slowly and attack after you have taken or dealt with the blade. Starting right from the beginning with an attack (the attack can be slow, but it must start immediately) will also frustrate the PIL, as Sabreur describes The opponent cannot be on guard with a PIL, so he must establish it after the command "Fence". You can take advantage of that time if you're smooth on the attack.

Remember, the attack doesn't have to be FAST at the start, it just has to be immediate, and close the distance before the opponent can bring up the PIL.

Another option when dealing with someone who fences with the point is to be slightly out of distance and make an action that the opponent CAN easily deceive (or has deceived before), such as a counter-tierce. This will usually "chase" the Point in Line to a known line, allowing you to beat and accelerate to the target. In a sense, you "ambush" the PIL by chasing it to a known line you can attack.

If the opponent was simply bringing up the PIL to frustrate you when you get close, then there is no reason to attack the PIL at all: few fencers will hold it out forever, and when the opponent pulls the arm back to make an attack (or decide what to do next), it becomes a saber game you should be able to win at.

Allen Evans
Dominion Fencing

[AndrewH]

As far as incorporating it into your game: scoring with a line is very difficult and uncommon in modern sabre (yes yes I know who Steve Mormando is..., besides him). What I use the line for is to force a reaction out of the opponent. Step back, establish a line, when the opponent pauses to figure out what to do about it, take the ROW over. Another possibility is to establish a line, then lunge with it while simaltaneously moving your guard out to lock out the attack.

Don't count on the other guy actually running into it, even if he does, the director might not call it yours. Best to stick with the line as a reactionary tool.

[Markstorm]

A strategy I sometimes use is: I establish PIL, and if my opponent becomes defensive and starts backing up, I wish draw my PIL and attack. However, if he attacks while I withdraw, do I lose the ROW? If so, what is the correct procedure for attacking from PIL?

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Markstorm

A strategy I sometimes use is: I establish PIL, and if my opponent becomes defensive and starts backing up, I wish draw my PIL and attack. However, if he attacks while I withdraw, do I lose the ROW? If so, what is the correct procedure for attacking from PIL?

Yes, you do lose right of way. If your opponent is backing up, you have nothing to worry about. The right of way loss of withdrawing point in line is not as big of a loss as if you were parried or fell short.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Markstorm

A strategy I sometimes use is: I establish PIL, and if my opponent becomes defensive and starts backing up, I wish draw my PIL and attack. However, if he attacks while I withdraw, do I lose the ROW? If so, what is the correct procedure for attacking from PIL?

I may be misunderstanding the question...do you mean "withdrawing the line" as in pulling back the arm, or just as in retreating while keeping the arm and blade straight out and pointed at the target? If the latter, no, you don't lose priority. The line can be maintained going either forward or back, so long as it is kept out and not waved around. You DO lose priority withdrawing the line by bending the arm.

PIL needs a good deal of skill to be used for anything more than a way to give the opponent momentary pause, or as a "feeler" to tell you where his attack is likely to come. I have never really been able to get the hang of it, but I can usually cope when it's used against me, simply because I have a clubmate who is quite good at the PIL game in sabre and so I get a lot of practice...

One tactic that hasn't been mentioned in this regard is to do circular beats against someone who is good at derobing a simple search for it: the initial attempt to take may miss, but the PIL user is seldom prepared for a second in the same plane in immediate succession.