National Identification

[Soldier]

We all have state driver's licenses; why not just have one nation-wide identification card that would be ID, driver's license, secure access, etc.? Could maybe even link it to a bank account. All sorts of convenience.

Now, I know, I know, all the arguments about the government being able to track us too easily. But for the number of documents I already have to put my social security number all over, why not? I mean, I went into Flight Issue the other day to check on the items charged against me, and gave my social to access the account. The man sitting behind the desk guessed where I'd been born (down to the city), just based on the first digits. Why not just make those our official National ID numbers, and link them to a nation-wide license/card?

[Tazz]

Nahhh why would they want to give people the luxury of only having one document with a bad photo, when they can torture us with plenty of documents with bad photos...

[jeff]

Soldier, I think your proposal would make a lot of sense - but look for a lot of people to start jumping up and down about invasion of privacy, government intrusion, etc (what? we don't already have this in a less convenient form today?)

[Schiavona]

"ID card! Where is your identification card! What?! You don't have it? Off to jail you terrorist scum!"


This is what people are afraid of. I've watched three different news story 'stings' where a well dressed black man gets picked up by police for the great crime of having no identification on him.

Somebody tell me I'm wrong and that this sort of thing doesn't happen.

[jeff]

Sorry, John - it happens.

There's also the crime of "DWB" (Driving While Black). Here in the great state of New Jersey there was a big scandal over NJ State Troopers pulling over black drivers for drug searches, without any cause or fitting any profile other than having excess melanin.

[Faggot the Hutt]

The government can track people via the cards we use now: SSN, credit card, license, medical. Uniting the cards in one will make no difference. The dudes with the aluminum foil hats are just being paranoid.

However, let's say all of the cards Soldier mentioned are unified into one card, and you just happen to lose yours. Now you are an invidivual with no ID, no credit, no license, no SSN and no medical. So, now you've got to call your credit card company, medical company, DMV, and the government to deactive the old codes on the card, have new ones issued- which brings up another issue, cross-communication.

In order for the credit cards to process transactions, the credit card companies will need to have access to government systems that are tied into the card. The same goes for the medical companies, DMV, etc... Do you have any idea what kind of technological nightmare that will be? You will have to setup access between Federal, State and Corporate computer architectures, but you can't give people access to Federal systems without a clearance, which means you'd have to either loosen restrictions, which means compromising security, or you'll have to fire/hire an entirely new workforce. Plus, computer systems are not universally compatible, which means you either create a new system for the ENTIRE UNITED STATES, or you buy the same equipment for everyone, which means spending even more money than this will already cost. This would also mean that any unified card system would be equally vulnerable to attack all across the board. A hacker would need to know only one OS, and not several in order to hack the unified card system.

Of course, this system will also need monitors to ensure the computers running the show aren't compromised by insiders, outsiders or just general stupidity- which means creating yet another government agency. At the very least, you'll need to hire more people within an existing agency, and that means tons of beaurocratic red tape, etc...

Essentially, the idea of a unified card is a bad idea that is the product of a society that believes computers can solve all our problems over night. You have once again demonstrated your shear naiveté regarding how the real world works, Brandon.

National ID... Pfft... morons. How do you guys put your pants on in the morning without killing yourselves?

[jeff]

Well, a _somewhat_ thoughtful response from FtH (except for the last sentence, I guess he couldn't restrain himself), which is nice to see.

The computer situation needn't be as bad as all that - there are network based "federated identity and authentication" systems (eg: Project Liberty) that allow different computer system types to share identity information in a controlled manner, without having to create a humongous single repository. Part of the "federated" aspect is that different organizations can keep their information in their own "silo" yet create shared identity across organizations. For a private-sector hypothetical example: somebody who authenticatess into the American Express website and buys a flight on Continental there could be authenticated into the Continental website (eg: Continental's software would be told by Amex, "I've alread IDed this guy and taken his money. Here it is"), without either company giving up their customer databases to each other.

[Faggot the Hutt]

Originally Posted by jeff

Well, a _somewhat_ thoughtful response from FtH (except for the last sentence, I guess he couldn't restrain himself), which is nice to see.

Don't belittle me- my response was extremely well read and covered far more than what has been discussed.

The computer situation needn't be as bad as all that - there are network based "federated identity and authentication" systems

Your response still does not address the problems associated with losing the card. A person would lose everything, and that is unacceptable in a computer dependent society. You also did not address the problem associated with putting all of your eggs in one basket. One, single system intrusion would mean everyone is at risk. The whole idea is high risk and high consequence.

[Soldier]

Alright, then let's simplify the problem for a moment, and put off the replacement issues until later.

Assuming we're not going to keep using the same computer systems until the end of time, why couldn't we start phasing a new system in?

[jeff]

Originally Posted by ****** the Hutt

Don't belittle me- my response was extremely well read and covered far more than what has been discussed.

You, of all people, complaining about being belittled? Hah, that's funny. Most of your posts are about belittling others. I was actually (partially) praising you for a (mostly) constructive post for a change.

Originally Posted by ****** the Hutt

Your response still does not address the problems associated with losing the card. A person would lose everything, and that is unacceptable in a computer dependent society. You also did not address the problem associated with putting all of your eggs in one basket. One, single system intrusion would mean everyone is at risk. The whole idea is high risk and high consequence.

People would have to reestablish their identity based on other criteria, obviously. Traditional computer security is "something you know" (a password or PIN), and "something you have" (ID card, encrypted token card, etc). It now also includes the category of "something you are", which would include biometrics. So, a possible way to replace your lost card is (1) call the necessary 800 number that says the card is lost, so it becomes invalidated should somebody find it and try to use it (2) show up at the local governmental office (Post Office? Police Station? City Hall?) and let them scan your fingerprint or retina, and then issue a new card.

Of course, the really paranoid idea is to fit everybody with RFID tokens the way they do with some pets today - small computer scannable devices that can have an encrypted description of your identity. This opens up other cans of worms: people could determine who you are simply by having an RFID scanner in proximity, or with other schemes, by brushing up against you.

Gotta be careful with these ideas, they can have a lot of unintended consequences (which answers Soldier's question: because even if we decide we want such a system, the design and implementation to do it right are non-trivial)

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by Soldier

We all have state driver's licenses; why not just have one nation-wide identification card that would be ID, driver's license, secure access, etc.? Could maybe even link it to a bank account. All sorts of convenience.

Now, I know, I know, all the arguments about the government being able to track us too easily. But for the number of documents I already have to put my social security number all over, why not? I mean, I went into Flight Issue the other day to check on the items charged against me, and gave my social to access the account. The man sitting behind the desk guessed where I'd been born (down to the city), just based on the first digits. Why not just make those our official National ID numbers, and link them to a nation-wide license/card?

Um, call me Canadian, but don't you have that funny thing called a passport?

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

it would be better if we could imbed a small chip or something into a persons neck, therefore they WILL NOT LOSE IT.... it makes it so much more simple.

[jeff]

Originally Posted by jBirch

Um, call me Canadian, but don't you have that funny thing called a passport?

Not everybody does - a lot of US people never leave the country, so it's entirely optional. FWIW, there is a proposal to embed RFID chips in US passports so they can scan you at immigration just by walking past a scanner. (Now they used a bar code or MICR strip and have to physically slide the passport into a reader). I'm against this proposal because Bad People would be able to use an RFID reader (basically, a small radio transmitter and receiver) and see who is carrying an RFID identity tag within 20 feet... anywhere.

[Larrison]

Originally Posted by jBirch

Um, call me Canadian, but don't you have that funny thing called a passport?

Most folks in the US don't have a passport. If you go between the US and Mexico or the US and Canada or several other countries you don't need a passport -- just some form of photo ID like a driver's license.

[jeff]

Timely news: ZDNet News reports that the Real ID Act of 2005 has been passed by the House, by a 251-161 margin. It stipulates that driver's licenses must include a digital photograph, anticounterfeiting features and undefined machine-readable technology." From the article: "Another portion of the bill says that states would be required to link their DMV databases if they wished to receive federal funds. Among the information that must be shared: All data fields printed on drivers' licenses and identification cards, and complete drivers' histories, including motor vehicle violations, suspensions and points on licenses."

See http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-5571898.html or http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?s...139246&tid=158 for comments on this.

[Soldier]

After FTH's comment, sounds like it's starting to follow your sig...

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by jeff

Not everybody does - a lot of US people never leave the country, so it's entirely optional. FWIW, there is a proposal to embed RFID chips in US passports so they can scan you at immigration just by walking past a scanner. (Now they used a bar code or MICR strip and have to physically slide the passport into a reader). I'm against this proposal because Bad People would be able to use an RFID reader (basically, a small radio transmitter and receiver) and see who is carrying an RFID identity tag within 20 feet... anywhere.

The Mark of the Beast, you mean?

Plus, anything electronic could probably create issues for the military - imagine trying to move covertly, while the enemy is watching an MFD that has your entire squad's positions as little blips on a map. jBirch, any input on this aspect?

We have a kind of unified ID here at the Academy, with our proxy cards (restricted access badges). Sure, they let us get in here in the first place, but they've got the added benefit of carrying a barcode which is linked to our accounts here. I go down to flight issue or the uniform store, they just give me the stuff I need, scan my proxy, I punch in my PIN, and I'm good to go.

Of course, now they're beginning to put the electronic locks on the insides of the gates...I'm just wondering how long until the mag strips are personally keyed - say, to those on restriction.

Then, of course, there's the wonderful convenience of everybody having a nametag on - makes it much easier to know who you're talking to. Not sure how that could be done without having a national uniform (which would obviously be stupid)...or even that it should. I just rather like it around here.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by Soldier

The Mark of the Beast, you mean?

Plus, anything electronic could probably create issues for the military - imagine trying to move covertly, while the enemy is watching an MFD that has your entire squad's positions as little blips on a map. jBirch, any input on this aspect?

Nothing to add except that the purpose of an ID is to, well, identify yourself. If you want to hide your ID then, well, you're hiding.

The problem with things like RFID is that people who want to know who you are, can, regardless of whether you want them to know or not. This is good at the border, bad in the field.

Jeff's point is that if you rely on something like RFID at the border, a terrorist need only scan the broadcast signal of someone who looks vaguely like them, then rebroadcast that signal at the gate to look like someone they're not. Essentially, it makes counterfitting IDs a trivial matter.

On the military question, units in the field are not civies at the border. A simple radio signal triangulation device (basically, just an omnidirectorial antena) will pinpoint any electronic data source so patrol emissions discipline is going to get more and more important in future conflict. In fact, it's an issue already when western forces play (the Force XXI trials have identified it). Things like RFID are just not going to be practical for Friendly Fire and C2 problems for exactly that reason, though until RFID technology is widespread, electronic locators will still be carried on trucks.

Hope this helps.

[Soldier]

Indeed it does - thanks.