RE: [CFML] Rapier fought like Foil ???

Stephen,

Thanks for the reply.

> You can do a foil parry with a rapier, but it is of course=20
> slower, because you're changing the momentum of a much=20
> heavier object.=20

Some of the blades people are using for rapier fencing,=20
such as epee blades can do foil-like parries much more=20
quickly than a real rapier would have been able to do.
In bouts, most people will use whatever works with the=20
weapon in hand. (As in modern sport fencing's use of=20
the flick, just because it works with flexible foils=20
and electric tips) My desire is to keep my rapier fencing
and my students' rapier fencing historically accurate.
The shorter 35" schlager blades we have used seem to=20
encourage non-historical parries. The longer 40" schlager
blades we have been using tend to be too whippy which is
detrimental to point control. And so we have been greatly
dissatisfied with our rapier fencing. We don't want to=20
just "play fight" like some of our SCA friends do in their=20
rapier fencing. We want to make our study as close to the
original as possible. And so we are looking for a blade
that will give us as accurate as possible a rapier replica
to train with in our rapier classes.=20

We've heard of the two Dell Tin rapiers blades, but haven't=20
heard as to how they compare with each other in shape, taper,
or in actual use. We've heard of Triplette's "rapier blade"=20
but haven't heard from anyone as to how it handles either.
I have heard that there are a few people out there using "real",
(whatever that means) rapiers with blunted tips. We'd like to
hear from those who have tested each of these so that we can
make an educated decision as to which one/s to purchase.

And length is a factor as well. I have read several historical=20
methods for determining the correct blade length. However,=20
short of purchasing a hand forged blade tailored to ones height,
one has to settle for either 35" or 40." Which is it better to=20
err on, the shorter or longer?

> Now cavazione/disengages require far less=20
> momentum change and while slower than with a foil, are faster=20
> in relation to a rapier parry than a foil disengage is to a=20
> foil parry. Hence simple parries aren't the best option.=20

Refresh my memory: Are Cavazione's corkscrew like over/under disengages?
If so then they are faster than rapier parries.

> One=20
> Master, Joseph Swetnam uses them, but does them at arms=20
> length. Swetnam is at pains to point out how this allows you=20
> to parry with a very small hand movement (due to the cone=20
> effect of the sword being further from the body), such=20
> parries being too slow if done with a bent arm, using a=20
> larger movement.

I have only given Swetnam a cursory look in the past. But that=20
does make sense. Does the rapier he used differ much from
the one used by the other masters?

> Attacks with opposition are in my opinion the pinnacle of=20
> rapier fencing technique. They can be done in any line.

This is what I was taught.

> As to how to prevent people from using ahistorical technique,=20
> I use only accurate replicas of actual surviving rapier=20
> blades.=20

This is what I wanted to know.=20
Tell me about the tips. Are they cut flat, hammered back, forged=20
blunt, or left pointed but covered with some short of safe tip?
=20
> The longer I study rapier=20
> fencing the more I believe that each style is designed for a=20
> very specific type of weapon. I have quite different rapiers=20
> for fencing in the styles of Di Grassi, Saviolo, Swetnam and=20
> Pallas Armata.=20

Would you mine giving us details as to the type, name/model, cost,
maker, and contact information for the rapiers you use for each=20
style? This would be very helpful to us. Also do you have any=20
photos of your rapiers anywhere on the internet which we could=20
look at.

> I think that one of the main things holding=20
> back the development of historically accurate rapier fencing=20
> is the insistence by some groups on using weapons which=20
> simply don't handle like historical rapiers.

I think you have hit the nail on the head and would like to hear
your opinions on and experiences with the various blades being
used today as rapier simulators.

Blessings,
Rez Johnson

"Standing guard on old, forgotten roads, that no one travels anymore."
THE FENCING MASTER
by Arturo Perez

Rez Johnson, M d'A
Headmaster: Mississippi Academy of Arms (Mississippi Fencing Academy)
President: United States Traditional Fencing Association
Certified Fencing Instructor: (USTFA, TFI, AAI, USFCA)
Certified Fencing Master Apprentice: (USTFA, USFCA)
Teaching Classical Fencing and Historical Swordsmanship since 1980
Modern Sport Fencing Coach 1980 - 2002

Mississippi Academy of Arms=20
P.O. Box 955
Pelahatchie, MS 39145-0955

E-Mail: 1@MSFencing.org=20
Academy Website: http://MSFencing.org
USTFA Website: http://traditionalfencing.org=20





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>> One
>> Master, Joseph Swetnam uses them, but does them at arms
> > length. Swetnam is at pains to point out how this allows you
> > to parry with a very small hand movement (due to the cone
> > effect of the sword being further from the body), such
> > parries being too slow if done with a bent arm, using a
> > larger movement.

> I have only given Swetnam a cursory look in the past. But that
> does make sense. Does the rapier he used differ much from
> the one used by the other masters?

Swetnam's a bit later, his manual is from about 1620, most of the Italian
manuals are a twenty or thirty years earlier.

This was a period of great change in 'personal weapons'. By then the
'sword/rapier' was just about out and the pure rapier (the thin weapon with
little or no edge, just a point) was the norm.

The weapons were lighter and probably shorter than the Elizabethan
prototypes and in the next twenty or thirty years turned into the 'small
sword'.

Swetnam's parries are effective with a schlager type blade, probably
because the blades he used weren't that different from them, although the
originals I've looked at are stiffer and the hilts tended to be bigger and
more ornate than the ones we see on many 'modern' historical weapons, but
that could be because the ones that survive are the expensive and highly
decorated examples.

As the lighter weapons capable of a parry came into use the dagger started
to disappear.

--=20

William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea




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The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying rapier b=
lunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Yahoo! Groups Links

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Dear Rez,

>However, short of purchasing a hand forged blade tailored to ones height,
one has to settle for either 35" or 40." Which is it better to
>err on, the shorter or longer?

It's complicated and depends very much on the style you use. A 35" blade is
too short to perform attacks in opposition with any degree of certainty,
which is why rapier blades were longer. On the other hand, some styles are
very hard to use with weapons that are too long. Saviolo's style is a good
example of this. If you use a rapier of the correct length for various pure
Italian styles, then Saviolo's system is very hard to use. On the other han=
d
Swetnam tells you that the minimum length of your rapier should be four
feet, which equates to a minimum blade length of about 41". My Di Grassi an=
d
Saviolo weapons have blades of about 38" and my Swetnam and Pallas Armata
weapons have blades of about 42".

>Refresh my memory: Are Cavazione's corkscrew like over/under disengages? I=
f
so then they are faster than rapier parries.

Yes, and if you mean doing a foil style parry with a rapier, yes. If you do
a Swetnam arms length parry and carry your hand no more than six inches,
then simple parries work quite well.

>I have only given Swetnam a cursory look in the past. But that does make
sense. Does the rapier he used differ much from the one used by >the other
masters?

Swetnam specifies a minimum lengt, but not much else. He wrote in 1617. I
use a copy of a surviving English rapier that is 48" in total length and
weighs exactly 3lb. It works very well for Swetnam. Pallas Armata requires =
a
lighter weapon.

>Tell me about the tips. Are they cut flat, hammered back, forged blunt, or
left pointed but covered with some short of safe tip?

The tips of my blades are forged blunt (I simply get the smiths not to
include the final taper to the point that you see on the last half inch of
antique rapier blades). Rubber tips are necessary to allow reasonably robus=
t
play without injury. I have a chap here who makes excellent blades for not
much more than I've seen what I regard as far inferior commercially
available blades being sold for.

>Would you mine giving us details as to the type, name/model, cost, maker,
and contact information for the rapiers you use for each
>style? This would be very helpful to us. Also do you have any photos of
your rapiers anywhere on the internet which we could look at.

My Di Grassi sword is a Del Tin, model 2161, which can be seen here
http://www.deltin.net/i5.htm Like all Del Tin blades, the one on this is a
bit soft, but otherwise it's very nice.

My Saviolo rapier is from Arms and Armor and can be seen here
http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item151.html Ignore their blade lengths a=
s
they measure from the front guard, not the cross. The blade length is
actually 38". This is a very fine sword!

My Swetnam rapier is from Manning Imperial in Australia and can be seen her=
e
http://manningimperial.com/item.php?item_id=3D115

My Pallas Armata rapier was made by a now defunct Australian smith.

>I think you have hit the nail on the head and would like to hear your
opinions on and experiences with the various blades being
>used today as rapier simulators.

Well I only use actual replicas of surviving blades (it never occurred to u=
s
in Australia to do anything else and we've never had the hint of an injury
with them) so I don't pay too much attention to what's out there in the
marketplace. The last time I seriously looked was a couple of years ago and
I was most dissatisfied with everything out there. I think things have
improved since then, but I don't have my finger on the pulse. The biggest
problem I've seen with commercially available blades is the lack of
thickness at the forte. Original rapier blades are almost always very thick
at the forte, around the 8mm mark is normal (that's a touch under a third o=
f
an inch), tapering to around 2mm thick (1/12th of an inch) near the point.
This allows them to be so long while retaining the rigidity needed to
thrust. It also allows a half way decent smith to use the massive distal
taper to create a blade that is very stiff for 2/3 of its length and quite
flexible in the last third (much like a modern foil). I think this actually
creates a safer weapon, because you actually know where your point is,
unlike some of the so-called rapier blades I've seen waving about in a most
disconcerting fashion. If the blade's so whippy that you don't know where
the point is, then how can you fence?

Regards
Stephen Hand
Stoccata School of Defence
http://www.stoccata.org
Chivalry Bookshelf
http://www.chivalrybookshelf.com



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>Swetnam's a bit later, his manual is from about 1620, most of the Italia=
n
manuals are a twenty or thirty years earlier.

Swetnam is 1617, while the "Classical" Italian treatises of Fabris and
Giganti are from 1606, Capo Ferro from 1610 and Alfieri from 1640.

>The weapons were lighter and probably shorter than the Elizabethan
prototypes and in the next twenty or thirty years turned into the 'small
>sword'.

Twenty or thirty years from Swetnam is the time of Pallas Armata, which
still taught the rapier, though in my opinion of what best works with the
style and from studying surviving originals, probably a lighter (but NOT
shorter) weapon. Newcastle in 1676 was still teaching the rapier, and it
isn't till Hope, ten years later that we see the first English smallsword
text. However, fencing treatises tend to describe what went before, not
necessarily what's absolutely current and we see weapons that are arguably
smallswords in England as early as 1650. Another interesting fact is that
from measuring surviving originals it would seem that English rapiers
between 1620 and 1640 were significantly lighter than those on the
continent, while after 1640 survivng weapons in all countries become shorte=
r
and lighter. I have a hypothesis that the English were starting to be
influenced by French styles. It would seem that the French emphasised
physical rather than positional engagements, which work better with lighter
weapons. There's more research to be done comparing the French works with
the Italian and with the English work Pallas Armata.

>Swetnam's parries are effective with a schlager type blade, probably
because the blades he used weren't that different from them

I've never seen a surviving rapier blade that looked or handled remotely
like a schlager blade.

Cheers
Stephen



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The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying rapier b=
lunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
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