[CFML] Rapier fought like Foil ???

In watching several SCA rapier fencers lately I have noticed that their
fencing doesn=92t really look like historical rapier, but more like a modif=
ied
form of foil fencing. The fencers I am referring to are tall/strong fencers
who use the shorter 35 " schlager bladed weapons. They are so light that
they can and do make foil-like parries with them in not only the high
outside line, but also in the high inside line and the low inside line\ and
rarely if ever use the off hand to parry.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the original rapiers incapable of
foil-like parries due to their length and weight?
Which is why the off hand, or a dagger or buckler was needed to parry with.

And When the rapier was used to parry, wasn=92t it only used to cover the h=
igh
outside line and then as more of an attack with opposition than a foil-like
parry? And never used to parry the inside line?=20

In light if the lightness of 35" rapiers how do you handle these
discrepancies in rapier fencing in your organizations?
When using weapons which are so light they can be used like foils do you
allow these unhistorical moves or do you prohibit them? or do you require
everyone to use the longer 40" blades?

Thanks.

Blessings,
Rez Johnson

"Standing guard on old, forgotten roads, that no one travels anymore."
THE FENCING MASTER
by Arturo Perez

Rez Johnson, M d'A
Headmaster: Mississippi Academy of Arms (Mississippi Fencing Academy)
President: United States Traditional Fencing Association
Certified Fencing Instructor: (USTFA, TFI, AAI, USFCA)
Certified Fencing Master Apprentice: (USTFA, USFCA)
Teaching Classical Fencing and Historical Swordsmanship since 1980
Modern Sport Fencing Coach 1980 - 2002

Mississippi Academy of Arms=20
P.O. Box 955
Pelahatchie, MS 39145-0955

E-Mail: 1@MSFencing.org=20
Academy Website: http://MSFencing.org
USTFA Website: http://traditionalfencing.org
"Eala Earendel engla beorhtast
ofer middangeard monnum sended."
Crist of Cynewulf=20
=20
=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Mondschein [mailto:editor@corporatemofo.com]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 10:48 AM
> To: classicalfencing@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [CFML] Rapier blades.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> You got you about three choices, the way I sees it:
>=20
> Del Tin practice rapier blade: Diamond-shaped, kinda heavy.
> Del Tin FISAS rapier blade: Lighter, triangular Triplette 40"=20
> double-wide epee: Even lighter, a 40" epee blade with no ricasso.
>=20
> A number of other firms, such as Alchem, also make blades.
>=20
> > I know that someone has asked this in the past, but I'm about to=20
> > purchase and I need an update.
> >
> > Who makes the best rapier blade for use in actual bouting? I'm 6'4"
> > and need a 40" blade. The schlagers I've used in the past=20
> left a lot=20
> > to be desired, and in a 40" length are absurdly whippy. I'd like=20
> > something stiffer with a better balance (lighter would be=20
> nice as well).
> >
> > Robert Pridgen
> > Mississippi Academy of Arms
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >=20
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying=20
> > rapier blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
> >=20
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>=20
>=20
> --
> Ken Mondschein
> www.corporatemofo.com
>=20
> "O for the wings
> of any bird
> other than a battery hen"
> -Hawkwind
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[Stephen Hand]

Dear Rez,

You can do a foil parry with a rapier, but it is of course slower, because
you're changing the momentum of a much heavier object. Now
cavazione/disengages require far less momentum change and while slower than
with a foil, are faster in relation to a rapier parry than a foil disengage
is to a foil parry. Hence simple parries aren't the best option. One Master=
,
Joseph Swetnam uses them, but does them at arms length. Swetnam is at pains
to point out how this allows you to parry with a very small hand movement
(due to the cone effect of the sword being further from the body), such
parries being too slow if done with a bent arm, using a larger movement.

Attacks with opposition are in my opinion the pinnacle of rapier fencing
technique. They can be done in any line.

As to how to prevent people from using ahistorical technique, I use only
accurate replicas of actual surviving rapier blades. Contrary to the belief
of some people, you can fence entirely safely with such blades. In fact if
you can't fence safely with an accurate replica blade then I don't want you
anywhere near me and my students. The longer I study rapier fencing the mor=
e
I believe that each style is designed for a very specific type of weapon. I
have quite different rapiers for fencing in the styles of Di Grassi,
Saviolo, Swetnam and Pallas Armata. I think that one of the main things
holding back the development of historically accurate rapier fencing is the
insistence by some groups on using weapons which simply don't handle like
historical rapiers.

Cheers
Stephen Hand
Stoccata School of Defence
http://www.stoccata.org
Chivalry Bookshelf
http://www.chivalrybookshelf.com



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[Adam Velez]

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 09:48:57 +1100, Stephen Hand <sjhand@bigpond.net.au> wro=
te:
=20
> Attacks with opposition are in my opinion the pinnacle of rapier fencing
> technique. They can be done in any line.

What Stephen said.

> As to how to prevent people from using ahistorical technique, I use only
> accurate replicas of actual surviving rapier blades.=20

Unfortunately, not a cure-all. A lot of SCA, and others, do use the
better simulators, but still don't get it=E2=80=94often causing themselves =
arm
problems.

> The longer I study rapier fencing the more
> I believe that each style is designed for a very specific type of weapon.=
I
> have quite different rapiers for fencing in the styles of Di Grassi,
> Saviolo, Swetnam and Pallas Armata.=20

Very true, and a great reason to own more rapiers.

> I think that one of the main things
> holding back the development of historically accurate rapier fencing is t=
he
> insistence by some groups on using weapons which simply don't handle like
> historical rapiers.

As I said earlier, IMO the simulator alone doesn't make the biggest
difference in these groups, as many of them DO allow the better
weapons, it's the lack of training and the 'sport/game/gotta win'
mentality that really screws things up. Thankfully, in my neck of the
woods, a great many SCA fencers ARE turning to period study and play,
and many are also serious students and teachers in the greater WMA
community.

On a side note, I've also found that in these sport-minded groups, one
of the best ways to enlighten folks to the virtues of historical study
is to kick their behinds with it. Also, one of the reasons I stay
involved with the SCA=E2=80=94someone needs to be there to guide those who =
are
interested to the correct information, and on to historical study.

Cheers,
Adam Velez

PS. Stephen, If you'll be at ISMAC or WMAW this year, I'll look
forward to meeting you, and hopefully we might get the chance at a few
passes.


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