Are you kidding me?

Once again the USFA has shown their ineptness to get things done and everyone is letting them off the hook.

Was anyone besides me at JO's?

Well, since no one else was there or seems to care...

The usfa has shown their lack ability in letitng everyone know about rule changes. I would like to think this was a last minute thing and not a back room deal but only time will tell. The ignorant and out of touch bout committee decided to once again change the rule ib sabre concerning target and the ack of the hand. Well, what is needed to cover the wrist and hand and what it can and can not look like. They decided to only allow cuffs that had regular cloth extending from the where the lame ends as target area. Well, since they did not bother to tell anyone of this rule change, including the equipment dealers, only a few people had this special item after buying the Allstar almost $40 cuff I had to get for my kid in North Carolina after they decided something needs to cover that hole between the lame and the jacket around the wrist. Thank god for the, nothing personal here, crazy russian coach who stood and gave them what for on the bout committee platform and made them recend this rediculous rule. Can't you people leave well enough alone? After being in this for only a few monthes I have been constantly thinking of why there are not more poeple doing this because it is so much fun to watch and participate. All I have to do is threaten my kid with no fencing and grades come up, chores get done, etc. Now I know why more people are not in this. Constant rule changes and interpretations are one thing but this level of incompetence is inexcuseable. If you wish to change the rules then let everyone know in advance so people have time to adjust and get the right equipment. Is a month or so too much to ask? I guess so. If this is an example of the kind of people and unprofessionalism running this sport it will never reach the heights of, well anything. We have 10,000 members every year for how long now? Maybe the folks who get out are the smart ones realizing how incompetent these people really are. Was I the only parent who was infuriated by this display? If I ever see the russian coach that finally verbally beat some sence into these people he gets a drink on me.

Signed,

Very Disgusted and Outraged!

[arcon]

[ 10-19-2001: Message edited by: arcon ]

[edew]

Funny, I was under the impression that all fencers, referees, and everyone who attended the JOs were sent confirmation forms with a sheet of paper detailing all rule changes. Were there yet another change in the rules between then (the delivery of the confirmation packet) and the competition?

[Bugaboo]

Originally posted by edew:
Funny, I was under the impression that all fencers, referees, and everyone who attended the JOs were sent confirmation forms with a sheet of paper detailing all rule changes. ...

Sheesh. I'll bet you actually read the fine print in contracts before you sign them, too. Who has time to mess with petty little details?!

[saberbaby03]

hmmm, odd i got 3 of these notices my club got a ton as well to give to all of its members i got a 3 page paper saying all ,of tyhe new rules about point in line and the manchet rule i payed $13 for my manchet, also to mention that you cant realy get mad at the ppl from usfa, seeing as how they work for FREE!!! yes thats right all volunteer, so i wouldnt be so mad at them, but i was at JO's and saw many manchets and if you couldnt find any you could go to the loomis's and they can take your existing manchet and turn it into a manchet with the coverd hand faberic (just like what allstar ulhman blade B/G do) and that would pass and it only cost $5 dollars!!!

sorry i dont mean to bag on you, and I dont want beef with you or anything but considering that usfa is a non profit org. it is kinda understandable that they might make a few mistakes also they just moved there entire office, and they have been moving at a considerably fast rate since they moved and had a change in staff.

Annika

[DarkTransient]

You are mad at USFA?
Are you kidding me?
10 years have gone by and we are still fencing with wires, all thanx to the bureaucrats in USFA.
So, to be mad at USFA is like to be mad a retarded person. It is pointless and it is bad for your health.

[saberkid]

oh just to let everyone know the msg saberbaby03 posted was actuly me, my password wasnt working so she put in her user name/password so dont flame her if you disagree with what i said, you can flame me if would like


going on about USFA DarkTransient your compleatly right you cant be mad at USFA the fact that they do ALL of this work for FREE is simply amazing because they have so much work to do! and they do it actuly very well all things considered.

you can get the *new* rules on usfa.org and lots of other sites i think evan this site (fencing.net) posted them up on the front page

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Fence with the best die like the rest!

[edew]

Volunteer or no, one would expect perfection from whatever endeavour. That said, I don't see what the USFA has done or is currently doing as being sub-par. It's par, and definitely not above-par (I guess I'm using the non-golf meaning of par).

Fencing with wires have little to do with USFA and more to do with FIE. As I mentioned, the manchette ruling was stipulated in a separate sheet of paper sent to all who attended the JOs at SLC. Also, as another poster mentioned, the Loomis folks were there to add a cloth on top of your manchette for just $5. Thus, I conclude that the original poster's grousing is nothing more than grousing.

[saberkid]

heh, well kinda pisses me off when ppl start to diss USFA because he didnt read about the rule changes and he was stupid enough to spend $40 on an allstar vs going to the loomis's and spending $5 for the fixed target area on his existing manchet, besided most of the vebders had manchets, at least i know of 3 that still had them until the very last day! and they were $13!!! cheapy little things.

as for the reason they dont want only a cuff is because it can and usaly dose exactly what the jacket dose witch is pull up revealing the not metalic jacket, the reason they need a full manchet is so that it will atach to the middle finger and stay *on* and cover the back of the hand, now i know that for a fact the companys *DO* and *DID* know that this type of manchet is requierd they have known since befor the denver NAC because that is when the rules was changed, now the armorers were not letting *some* manchets/cuffs pass and theres a reason for this, the cuff will move with the jacket revealing invalid target, and so it needs to be atached to some part of the hand keeping it from moving, and about 99% of the regular manchets passed some did not pass due to how much target the did *not* cover, the cuff's were a stupid idea ( i think) because they can move with the jacket. now AllStar makes a regular manchet, and its like $25, B/G makes a manchet witch is only $13 ( i know because i searched for gear that my club could possably order) the loomis's were making the necisary changes to the cuff's so that they were much like a regular manchet and so they would stay on the hand without moving, and these *did* pass. as i remember the armorers did pass the cuffs on the grounds that "the rule is new, BUT NEXT TIME IT WILL BE OFFICAL OR IT WILL NOT PASS" but it was only a few of them that wernt made right(4 cm of metalic faberic on the inside) the machets had more problems than the cuffs because that had the faberic problem with the 4 cm and that the white cloth coverd to much target (i think it was triplet manchets that did this)

ok its 12:16 and i have to get up at 6, so i will post more tomarow
l8r
Chris


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Fence with the best die like the rest!

[DarkTransient]

I don't see why USFA can't push their own standards on the side, especially wireless fencing. If USFA can get it working, FIE will follow.

[Lumberg]

Interesting note, if you read what is necessary for sabre fencing in 2000-2001 competitions, they mentioned the rule change regarding what is considered a target on the weapon hand. Here's the odd thing, I don't even fence sabre, and just took the time to read it out of curiosity. Not only that, a lot of companies out there are selling the gauntlets to satisfy the new FIE/USFA sabre rule in addition to the 2000 blades. I just saw one the other day, talk about chunky. I think what would have been most effective to communicate the new rule regarding what is considered target area on the hand is to have included a detailed drawing in addition to the new rule.
The original post does have some merit. Compared to some of the other sports out there (baseball, softball, ice hockey, field hockey, basketball, tennis, golf, swimming, track and field, cross-country running, soccer, football, wrestling, bowling, volleyball, gymnastics, diving, target shooting, skiing, snowboarding lacrosse, equestrian, judo, kayaking, rowing, motocross racing, skateboarding, cycling, speed skating, figure skating, water polo, synchronized swimming, racketball and squash just to name a few), not too many have all these fine print rule changes as fencing, and more specifically, sabre fencing.

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Lumberg.
"...ahhh, we have sort of a problem here... yeah, you apparently didn't put one of the new cover sheets on your TPS report"

[EnoYls]

you'd be suprised how many "fine print rule changes" are made in target shooting...

[vegan]

Lumberg and gang,
I have to take another sport of the list, cycling has more fine print rules then just about any other sport I've ever competed in, and just like fencing they change often, and without due notice to competitors; especially with regard to legal bikes and gear in road time trials!
Happy that I fence foil, and the equiptment seems to stay the same!
Ben

foil stuff will stay the same until (if and when) the powers-that-be decide they are going to cut down on flicking... then they'll start screwing with the tip... you'll need whole new points.. .fun eh?
of course who knows if it will ever come to be.

[oiuyt]

Speaking of fine print rules and rules interpretations in other sports.... Happens even in the major sports. Baseball attempting to remove the "outside strike" that pitchers like Maddux and Glavine live off of a year or two ago, trying to raise the called strike zone this year. Or basketball a couple years back when they changed rules regarding touch fouls and hand checking. Those changes made (and are making) a MUCH bigger difference in how those games are played than the removal of 10 sq. in. of target in sabre (and yes, I WAS one of those sabre fencers that LOVED tagging that back of hand area as my opponent missed, so I KNOW what the change means....).

Changing rules is certainly not unique to fencing, it happens in all sports, including what we might consider the stable, major sports. It's just that unless you're actually competing the changes tend to be fairly subtle and therefore tend to get missed or dismissed.

-B

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"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"

[Lumberg]

Let me rephrase my statement, there are less fine print rule changes in popular team sports (baseball, basketball, football, ice hockey, soccer) than fencing.
Fine print rule changes in team sports puts the responsibility of following those changes on the coaches who then inform the players.
I would have to say that in this case, the coach or instructor should have been up-to-date on the sabre rule changes and notified all his students and club members going to the JO's or NAC's about them. Fencing, like other sports, has rules. There's some amount of responsibility on the fencer to know the rules and rule changes and there's also some responsibility on the coach/instructor/maitre to know these rules. That's everything from having the proper manchette to sending your form in before the deadline.



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Lumberg.
"...ahhh, we have sort of a problem here... yeah, you apparently didn't put one of the new cover sheets on your TPS report"