registration cost

**sreckiki** · 02-07-2005 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Okay, this one got my back up a little as the other board members and I bust our buts to line up judges and venues for local tourneys. I am going to hope you were talking about DC/MD tourneys in that last part, but I will discourse nonetheless.

To be politically correct, I was NOT thinking about VA when I was saying that.

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Average open epee tourney, 45 fencers, $10 dollars a head. Income from entry fees: $450
Expenses:
Venue space at an average of $25 per hour for an 8 hour tourney = $200
Average cost (pay plus mileage) of a judge (usually 4 judges at a tourney) = $75X4 = $300
Lunches for judges and BC, paper & ink (for the printer/copier), pencils, sending things to the USFA, and misc. little things that pop up = $85
Total expense for average tourney = $585

Thanks for the data. But in anothers divisions, you fence in a fencing salle so no venue space cost (actually, there's one but you know what I mean), the pools and DE are made manually and there's no judge... So, that's why I was asking

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

As to why the guy you just beat is the guy that winds up directing, in our division almost all of the qualified judges are active fencers, coaches or both. In order to have judges at every event we sometimes have to draft/bribe/beg fencers to help out once they are done fencing.

I'm a bit confused now. If you pay a ref, I think he's not fencing the same day? Anyway, I was just asking why we pay $15 if there is no referee...

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

(...) and everyone reffing at an event would be "impartial" as they would not be fencing in it as well. Since that rarely happens we make do with what we can.

Am I detecting a tiny attack, here?

Again, it was just an example! I didn't question the referee's "imparliaty"... and I think you know me (but actually, I don't see exactly who you are, sorry...): I fence Epee so there are not a lot of judging issues in this arm and each time, I fenced in VA, I didn't do really well (so my example couldn't occur there).

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Just something to think about the next time you are feeling like you are wasting your money to pay for a tourney... The alternative is not fencing at all and for the sake of fencing karma, you might even want to mutter a little thank you to the BC and BOD at your next tourney for making it happen!

I'm close to be offensed here (the

is saving your sentence). I really love this sport and certainly more than you think. I started to fence 4 yo and I did a lot of hours, assembling and disassembling stripes in these 4 years (more than most of beginners). So, I know what you're talking about... but I think I have the right to ask where the money's going?

**oiuyt** · 02-07-2005 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by sreckiki

but I think I have the right to ask where the money's going?

If the tournament is run by a club, generally into the pocket of the club owner (true even if the club owner is losing money on operating his/her club, the profits from the tournament(s) still drop to the bottom line and reduce that net loss).

If it's being run by a division then the money goes into the various other programs the division runs. This answers then becomes EXTREMELY division specific. Check division minutes (Assuming there are any) or division meetings to determine how your (or any other) division spends money.

Most divisions take at least some, and in some cases a considerable amount, of money from tournaments to fund other activities, whether high-points awards, subsidies for certain fencers to attend certain events, support for new clubs, support for existing clubs, running clinics open to members of the division, division equipment (purchasing and upkeep), trips to the bahamas for division officers, division newsletters, etc., etc. Divisions get $3/year/member from the USFA, but that's not going to fund much. Everything else needs to be funded from some other source, and tournaments are nearly always the primary one that divisions find.

-B :)

**Allen Evans** · 02-07-2005 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by veeco

This is not meant as a critic, but rather as a question, but don't most tournaments with 45 fencers happen at a fencing club? In those cases, most of the time the venue space price is not really something that can be factored into the cost since the venue is rented monthly or yearly...

But perhaps this is due to something I don't know about, which is particular to your division...

A fair portion of the clubs in the United States do not have a dedicated space that they can call their own. Some clubs DO have a dedicated space, but it may be too small to hold a tournament of 40-45 people. In Cvillefencer's Division, I believe only two clubs have full time space for their operation. Everyone else rents a day or two a week.

Of course, it's possible to rent that club space on the weekends, but in addition to rent, some facilities charge an additional fee for janitorial work done on the space on Saturdays. Even a smallish fee can greatly impact the economics of a tournament.

Allen Evans
Dominion Fencing

**Larrison** · 02-07-2005 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by veeco

This is not meant as a critic, but rather as a question, but don't most tournaments with 45 fencers happen at a fencing club? In those cases, most of the time the venue space price is not really something that can be factored into the cost since the venue is rented monthly or yearly...

But perhaps this is due to something I don't know about, which is particular to your division...

No -- most tournaments with 45 fencers don't happen at a fencing club. There are a few 'club tournaments' which might come close to that in size but very few, unless its one of the very few large clubs around. In my area, I can only think of 1 or 2 clubs that might get 45 people to an club tournament, and even then I'd expect most of the fencers to be from outside the club. The club I fence with, only has had maybe 1 tournament in the last year that I can recall that came close to that size, and I think the number was in the 30's -- and specifically involved 2 other clubs.

Most tournaments are held either at a local college gymnasium, or a local high school gym, or a local national guard armory (bascially a gymnasium). For each of those venues the organizers of the tournament has to pay for the facility out of the tournament fees. In one case, having one of the coaches at the school be associated in the past on the local USFA Division helps get the facility for use -- but since it's the USFA Division using the gym, not the school, you still pay for use of the facility.

**CvilleFencer** · 02-07-2005 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by sreckiki

To be politically correct, I was NOT thinking about VA when I was saying that.

Okay, as long as you were not thinking of MY division then anything detrimental is okay, as those DC/MD folks surely deserve it!

Seriously, after the first little bit I meant the rest of the post as kind of a general observation and not directed at you at all!

Thanks for the data. But in anothers divisions, you fence in a fencing salle so no venue space cost (actually, there's one but you know what I mean), the pools and DE are made manually and there's no judge... So, that's why I was asking

As Allen said, in my division there are only 2 of a couple of dozen fencing clubs that have their own space. Even if you do have a club with its own dedicated space, to host a tourney there is to take away income potential for the club that it could make through private lesson, classes etc and if you add in the extra utilities, consumables (soap, TP, paper towels), use, abuse and repair of facility equipment (overhead reels, the clubs scoring boxes, etc) then there is a definite cost there that the hosting club should very reasonably expect to recover. Also for smaller, more struggling clubs hosting a tourney can be one of the few ways they can get extra funding to pay for new equipment, repairs, etc. In short there is a cost attached to hosting a tourney even if you are not renting space. That was what I was trying to say.

I'm a bit confused now. If you pay a ref, I think he's not fencing the same day? Anyway, I was just asking why we pay $15 if there is no referee...

At least with us we sometimes pay a good ref (a 6 or 5 for example) a little bit, like lunch and waive his entry fee, if he agrees to run a pool and then direct when he is done/not fencing. The theory is that you get someone who is competent to know what he is doing, and that person still gets to fence. A bit of a compromise I will grant, but better than having someone who has no idea how to judge up there slowing things down and making the bout difficult. As to other reasons you pay the $$ see above.

Am I detecting a tiny attack, here? Again, it was just an example! I didn't question the referee's "imparliaty"... and I think you know me (but actually, I don't see exactly who you are, sorry...) I fence Epee so there are not a lot of judging issues in this arm and each time, I fenced in VA, I didn't do really well (so my example couldn't occur there).

Guilty as charged. This is one of my pet peeves. I have blown off fencing in tourneys that I had planned on attending and fencing in because there were not enough refs to go around. When we are trying to schedule refs for an event and no one steps up, and then at that even some of the same people who refuse to help out ***** and whine about how slow its taking or that X is a crappy ref it is all I can do not to go sideways on them with a cheese grader and some kosher salt. So, I may be just a bit defensive on this one, but it is not directed at you at all! Just a general free floating anger towards the masses!

Oh, and we have met a few times. I think I even reffed a couple of your bouts before. I am the big ugly brown haired guy with a beard and FAINE on the back of his fencing jacket. Not to be confused with Jason W, who is an even bigger brown haired guy with a beard, or Eric M who is not as big as either Jason or myself, but is much uglier!

(he's gonna kick my a$$ for that...)

I'm close to be offensed here (the

is saving your sentence). I really love this sport and certainly more than you think. I started to fence 4 yo and I did a lot of hours, assembling and disassembling stripes in these 4 years (more than most of beginners). So, I know what you're talking about... but I think I have the right to ask where the money's going?

Again, not directed to you at all, but at the world in general, and you certainly have a right to ask what your money is being used for and where it is going. This could easily send me on another diatribe in that, for example, in our division of almost 500 registered USFA fencers, about 20 show up to vote for the board, run for office themselves, or show more interest in the division than showing up, fencing till they are out and leaving. In short, I agree that you have every right to ask where it is going and I was really just trying to give you an example (using my division) of where your money might be going. I was just trying to be helpful and all that. I really am sorry if I came of otherwise!

**Army Fencer** · 02-09-2005 12:35 PM

I just came back to this thread after not looking for awhile...

Originally Posted by sreckiki

Don't be naive, Isaac. I don't think there is one single coach in France who makes the same amount of money that your coach does here...

Uh, I was talking about registration fees, not coaching fees.

It's my impression that the French fencing organization receives some of its money from the state and that this translates to lower costs for the fencer for national tournaments. Perhaps I am wrong and I welcome you to correct me, but please don't call me naive.

Veeco gave a very nice post about why it's so much more expensive for coaching in the US than it is in France. Perhaps you've had a different experience, or you were unaware of all your club's finances while you were back home.

Originally Posted by sreckiki

Where I fence, the salle is not gorgeous, not even clean sometimes, there's no shower, a window is missing since a while... I remember one night, five stripes in something like eight were broken and it's a guy from the club who took almost three hours to fix everything and got ONE free lesson.

It doesn't sound like you enjoy fencing at our club for the amount of money that you're paying our coach. I'm sorry to hear that.

One of the great things about America is that one has a lot of choices if one is uncomfortable about the way one's club is being run. One could talk to their coach about the problems, as you suggest. One could fence elsewhere if the situation was completely intolerable and grievences disregarded. Alternatively, one could even start another club altogether and make it however they like. These are the forces that lead to new ideas and new clubs that compete with the old to bring lower prices for better quality.

I, for one, am very happy with my club. One medical school in this entire nation accepted me, and it happened to be next to a club with committed floor space for competing, some of the best coaching in the region (and probably the nation), and a large group of strong competitors in my weapon--including you. And since I've been there, I have grown tremendously as a fencer, developed strong friendships, and networked professionally. I couldn't ask for a whole lot more from any fencing club here or abroad, even if a window is missing and floors aren't always swept.

I think our coach is doing very well making sure that DCFC is a financially viable business and promotes the sport of fencing itself.

**sreckiki** · 02-09-2005 01:51 PM