registration cost

[Army Fencer]

Originally Posted by Alan

In France it is usually 10 Euros for a national event (registration + one event)

Perhaps because the sport is subsidized in France...

[Zilverzmurfen]

Originally Posted by fencerontheline

More than a thousand actually... it's $50 per student and there's at least 25-30 people in the class...

Do fencing 'students' in the US pay $50 for ONE fencing session?
That's what we charge our beginners - for a whole 10 weeks Beginners Course (once a week for ten weeks).
And about 1/3 of my annual fencing club membership (with all lessons included) fee...

[fencerontheline]

That's one 2-3 hour group class...

[audiomyst]

Where I go they charge the beginners 20 dollars a lesson for this 10 lesson program, and once you get better and become intermediate or advanced they charge a little more for each lesson.

[leia]

Originally Posted by fencerontheline

More than a thousand actually... it's $50 per student and there's at least 25-30 people in the class...

how long does the class go for?

[Fencing Mom]

Simon Gershon is the national men's foil coach, which means he is the coach of the US men's team for the Olympics and now for WC's and World Championships. He also coaches many of the other elite men foilists. He coaches out of Fencers Club in New York, which many would say is the best club in the country for foil - the club shares facilities with the Peter Westbrook foundation which many would say is the best men's sabre club. Rent in New York City is the highest in the US, both for fencing clubs and for coach's apartments.

There is really no rich tradition of fencing in the US, as there is in Europe. Good clubs and good coaches that are capable of producing successful elite fencers are few and far between in this geographicly huge country. Finally, above all, this is a capitalist society. Simon Gershon is paid by his students what the market will bear.

[Larrison]

Costs to fence here? And I'm not talking about national level events like the NAC's to which you add transportation costs (usually air fare), lodging and food -- at least several hundred dollars on top of that entry fee.

This is for the local club I fence with, which has a dedicated facility in Southern California, and typical competitions in Southern California. .

Local competition costs (Opens, typically including pools of more than 40 fencers in some weapons) run about $10-20 per weapon. More if you register at the door, and less if you register early so the organizers know how many people are coming. You do have to be a member of the USFA, but you can typically buy a membership at the door if you don't have one.

Lessons? Depending upon the coach -- the local sallee I fence at has 20 minute individual lessons for $20 each, but have to arranged individually with the coach. You also have to be a member of the club, or make special arrangements.

Group lessons are $100 for 8 lessons (2 months), for an hour. Class sizes run from 4-6 up to around 18. You don't need to be a member of the club for these.

Club fees? Adults, its $120 a quarter, or $440 a year. In return you get use of the facility 6 nights/ afternoons a week -- 8 electric strips, and some additions (such as video setup for reviewing bouts, if you desire it). Under 18, or a student with current ID card it's $105 a quarter, or $385 a year. For families with multiple members of the center, there's a lower rate per person for that, but higher than a single individual member.

If you're not a member, floor fees are $7 a night or afternoon, with no extra charge for use of the electrical scoring equipment.

[telkanuru]

My fencing costs:

$50/year membership
$200/year uni club fee
$10/day floor fee to non-uni club (for breaks)
$10/competition, ~10 competitions/year
$200-400/year for equipment (blades, gloves, shoes, etc.)
I don't even want to think about what I'm going to pay when I start going national. I'm just a poor college student...

[ThatReallyHurt]

Local tournaments here seem to be about $25 to enter the first event, and $20 for every other event after that.

[Illini5596]

Also remember this, French nationals comprise a pool of 65 million french citizens drawn over 674,843 km². US nationals comprise a pool of 293 million US citizens drawn over 9,631,418 km². Which do you think is more difficult to organize?

[Larrison]

Originally Posted by Illini5596

Also remember this, French nationals comprise a pool of 65 million french citizens drawn over 674,843 km². US nationals comprise a pool of 293 million US citizens drawn over 9,631,418 km². Which do you think is more difficult to organize?

You might add to that, there are quite a few more fencers in France than the US. One reference gives the number as 70,000 in France and 20,000 in the US in organized competitions.

[sreckiki]

Originally Posted by Army Fencer

Perhaps because the sport is subsidized in France...

Don't be naive, Isaac. I don't think there is one single coach in France who makes the same amount of money that your coach does here...

Just think about that.

Best regards.

[Montoya]

Originally Posted by sreckiki

Don't be naive, Isaac. I don't think there is one single coach in France who makes the same amount of money that your coach does here...

Just think about that.

Best regards.

I doubt that discrepancies in coaches' salaries account for the difference in the ultimate cost to the fencer between France and America. Relatively few coaches in America make much money coaching. Those that do usually combine good coaching skills with a fair amount of business acumen. Is it truly naive to wonder about the role of subsidies in European fencing? After all, in France, many areas are highly subsidized by the government (I'm thinking about healthcare and education). My young cousin paid very little to fence as a teenager in Paris - and the only way that I think that is possible is if her club was subsidized.

[sreckiki]

Originally Posted by Montoya

I doubt that discrepancies in coaches' salaries account for the difference in the ultimate cost to the fencer between France and America.

Of course, these discrepancies account for the difference in the cost to the fencer. At least where I fence... It's just maths. The more you pay per lesson, the more the coach gets. But anyway, it's not my point here. See below for more explanations.

Originally Posted by Montoya

Relatively few coaches in America make much money coaching.

Maybe. Maybe not. I only know a few fencing places in America. But all the coaches I know (I mean Maitres d'Armes), have a really decent income and for how many hours per week? But again, I don't care that these people live at a really high $/hour rate. I'm glad for them...

Originally Posted by Montoya

Those that do usually combine good coaching skills with a fair amount of business acumen.

Yes, they have good BUSINESS skills.

Originally Posted by Montoya

Is it truly naive to wonder about the role of subsidies in European fencing?

No, it's not naive to wonder that. It's naive to think that the difference in the cost to the fencer can only be explained by the subsidies (which by the way are not as big as you think in most of the clubs there).

Originally Posted by Montoya

After all, in France, many areas are highly subsidized by the government (I'm thinking about healthcare and education).

That's why there are not 17 millions people without healtcare and that's why most of the students don't have to get an insane loan to pay their tuitions. But now, we're comparing important matters with fencing and I feel a little bit uncomfortable...

Originally Posted by Montoya

My young cousin paid very little to fence as a teenager in Paris - and the only way that I think that is possible is if her club was subsidized.

Again, "our club has no subsidies" works like a magic spell in a few places in America...

Anyway, I don't care to pay a significant amount to fence, to have access to the salle, to get lessons or to go to a tournament... but a few things are annoying me. Where I fence, the salle is not gorgeous, not even clean sometimes, there's no shower, a window is missing since a while... I remember one night, five stripes in something like eight were broken and it's a guy from the club who took almost three hours to fix everything and got ONE free lesson. And when I go to a regional tournment, I pay $15 for what exactly? It's certainly not to pay the referees because most of the time the the referee during the final is the guy you've beat in semi-final!

Don't be mistaken, I'm not complaining. I'm just saying that in a few places in America (few? many? I don't know...), the money is only going one way and most of the fencers in these clubs would have the right to ask more for the money they spend... but I'm not sure they're aware of that.

Montoya, I hope I made my point clearer now but if not, we can continue this discussion at the BFC this Sunday, if you want...

[sreckiki]

Originally Posted by Larrison

You might add to that, there are quite a few more fencers in France than the US. One reference gives the number as 70,000 in France and 20,000 in the US in organized competitions.

These numbers do not really mean much because, if I recall it well, when you fence in France, you HAVE to get the French Federation Fencing card to have the right to fence in a salle (it's an insurance issue). But I don't think that all the 70,000 fencers fence in organized competitions.

[CvilleFencer]

I thought I would speak a bit on the whole "US fencing coaches make tons of money thing" direction that this thread seems to be taking. Our club, which does not have its own permanent facility, but rents space from a local ballroom (although they do let us store some equipment and string up overhead reels) charges $40 per month for membership. With that you get:
Free armoring services
Access to fencing group classes for all three weapons
Access to two open fencing times
Access to loaner gear including electric weapons, body cords and lames for club or tourney use
Eligibility to fence in club tourneys that have yearly points based prizes (usually a cool sword or fencing gear)
A fairly thick Newsletter
Discounted prices on fencing gear (usually about 15-20%)

We have three coaches, a board of directors (we are going for NPO status) and an Armourer (who also happens to be a coach and on the board). No one makes any money off the club at all. It all goes to paying the rent and repairing equipment, buying new strips or saving for a bigger home. Coaches can and do offer private lessons at the rate of about $1 per minute from 20-45 minutes and they do get to keep most of that, but at my club, no one is getting rich! They teach the club for the love of teaching the sport and seeing it grow. I have three school programs that I teach and that am how I make what little money I bring in by coaching, not through the club.

However, some of the bigger clubs (like DCFC for example) I would say they are able to pay their instructors reasonably well (I doubt it is as much as they could make at a "real job" however) after paying rent/insurance/utilities/taxes/upkeep. However for most of the smaller clubs I know of (as in all but about 3 in VA) are ran by people who love the sport and do it for little or no money, and for that reason. The love of the sport. Just want to point out that not every fencing coach is a Hummer driving Russian capitalist (VA fencers know who I am making fun of) that is out there with a "make a profit, damn fencing in my area as long as I am making lots of money" sort of attitude.

The better a coach, the more he is able to pass on what he knows and develop elite level fencers, the more his time is worth. Plain and simple. There are a few big clubs around the US that have very high level coaches and excellent programs so that they can demand very steep prices for membership and services but most fencing is done, at least in my section, with smaller clubs that have part time coaches. Just don't want the non-US fencers on the board to think that every US fencer is shelling out thousands of dollars in floor fees and dues every year!

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by sreckiki

And when I go to a regional tournment, I pay $15 for what exactly? It's certainly not to pay the referees because most of the time the the referee during the final is the guy you've beat in semi-final!

Okay, this one got my back up a little as the other board members and I bust our buts to line up judges and venues for local tourneys. I am going to hope you were talking about DC/MD tourneys in that last part, but I will discourse nonetheless. This is not directed explicitly towards you Sreckiki (and I never got my hug at the NAC... ) but kind of in general to all those fencers who mutter about shelling over their 10 or 15 bucks for hours worth of entertainment (as opposed to spending it getting fat at a movie or on a pizza or at the arcade or wherever). Below I will use some rough numbers from my division.

Average open epee tourney, 45 fencers, $10 dollars a head. Income from entry fees: $450
Expenses:
Venue space at an average of $25 per hour for an 8 hour tourney = $200
Average cost (pay plus mileage) of a judge (usually 4 judges at a tourney) = $75X4 = $300
Lunches for judges and BC, paper & ink (for the printer/copier), pencils, sending things to the USFA, and misc. little things that pop up = $85

Total expense for average tourney = $585

So if you take your income ($450) and your expenses ($585) you will see that the "average" tourney looses money, at least in our division. The way it all keeps going is a lot of hard work by the board and some hard decisions (like what tourneys to have based on rather or not we can afford them. If you throw in things like hosting the NAC or Sectionals division finances can get pretty scary. The way that we do it is that we have a handful of tourneys a year that turn a decent profit and we use that to subsidize the tourneys that don't.

As to why the guy you just beat is the guy that winds up directing, in our division almost all of the qualified judges are active fencers, coaches or both. In order to have judges at every event we sometimes have to draft/bribe/beg fencers to help out once they are done fencing. Maybe if more of our fencers that could also ref were willing to give up a couple of tourneys a year and ref (and maybe even work with the board on scheduling so we could plot it out) we would have plenty of paid refs and everyone reffing at an event would be "impartial" as they would not be fencing in it as well. Since that rarely happens we make do with what we can.

Just something to think about the next time you are feeling like you are wasting your money to pay for a tourney... The alternative is not fencing at all and for the sake of fencing karma, you might even want to mutter a little thank you to the BC and BOD at your next tourney for making it happen!

[veeco]

Of course, I think Sreckiki's point wasn't that all coaches and all fencing clubs in the US are run by greedy people. I think that there is in fact a very big difference in what a small fencing club will be in Europe versus what a small one is in the US. Likewise, there is a big difference between a big fencing club in US and a big fencing club in Europe.

As far as my experience goes, in general a small fencing club in France will have an easier access to some funding, and may actually be able to afford a permanent space, albeit a small one, some equipment (such as clothing, weapons, machines). They may even be able to pay a qualified (with a diploma) fencing instructor, perhaps not full time, but part time. On the other side, a small fencing club in the US usually lives off of the readiness of it's members, to contribute equipment, lessons, money, etc. A small fencing club in the US will have a hard time to get funding from "official" channels such as their city or their region.

As far as larger fencing clubs go, I think that the large US fencing (with more than 100 members), will be moving around a lot more money than a fencing club the same size in France. In France, people expect their sport's club to provide for a lot of things, and they expect to pay very little in return. Basically, when it comes to a fencing club in France, people expect to pay a yearly fee, that will range from 100, to 500 euros, and expect to get in return:

free lessons
some reimbursement when they go to national tournaments (sometimes indexed on how well they did)
their fencing licence (including insurance)
discounts on fencing equipment
access to the fencing club whenever they want
access to the armoury, with sometimes use of the club's tools
possibility to loan equipment if they forgot their's or if they don't have any yet.
access to reasonably comfortable locker rooms, with showers

This represents a lot of work, and a lot of money. Usually, the fencers get more in a year in return compared to what they put down at the beginning of the year. The city, sports association, fencing club, generous donations from sponsors (rare), the regional councils usually foot the bill.

In contradiction, it has been my observation that big fencing clubs in the US usually involve more money changing hands. First of all most of the bigger fencing clubs might be 501c3 status organizations, but they still exist thanks to one and only one person: the fencing coach. The fencing coach is the one making money out of the fencing club. Usually the yearly fee is there to help with the running expenses of the fencing club, including rent, utilities, and what not. But as sreckiki mentioned, a lot of times, the yearly fee isn't enough to cover everything. So maintenance of the building is forgotten until someone thinks about doing it for some free lessons. Same for cleaning the fencing floor, restrooms, etc. In the end, most of the money that changes hands goes directly from the fencer to the coach, in the form of cash payments for lessons/classes. This is really the bulk of the money that fencers spend. Instruction is what is the most important in fencing, and the system in place places the highest cost on it.

As a result, coaches who work in a big fencing club in the US will make much more money than coaches who work in big fencing club in France. On the downside, they will have to work with all of the students and cannot choose to spend more time with a student than with another, since the money comes directly from the students. In the French system, money comes from other sources, so dedicated students get more lesson time than non dedicated ones.

On the other hand, fencing coaches in small fencing clubs will make more money in France than in the US.

[veeco]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Average open epee tourney, 45 fencers, $10 dollars a head. Income from entry fees: $450
Expenses:
Venue space at an average of $25 per hour for an 8 hour tourney = $200
Average cost (pay plus mileage) of a judge (usually 4 judges at a tourney) = $75X4 = $300
Lunches for judges and BC, paper & ink (for the printer/copier), pencils, sending things to the USFA, and misc. little things that pop up = $85

Total expense for average tourney = $585

This is not meant as a critic, but rather as a question, but don't most tournaments with 45 fencers happen at a fencing club? In those cases, most of the time the venue space price is not really something that can be factored into the cost since the venue is rented monthly or yearly...

But perhaps this is due to something I don't know about, which is particular to your division...