How to hold a rapier?

[Tydive]

A couple years ago I bought a German Rapier and it is very nice... but for the life of me I can't figure out how to hold it properly. I have tried taking a sabre grip, but it is too point heavy for that to work... it really is a point in line kind of weapon. I have tried with a finger (or two) going over the guard and resting on the forte... which seems to work ok but honestly it seems a bit off. Any suggestions?

[Bonehead]

Tierce, but point aimed at oponent, not high, Pomel against wrist, as support

[reposte]

The German Rapier, I think more accurately the Swedish rapier, is not a fencing weapon as we see it, it's too heavy and cumbersome.
It was used mainly for cavalry thrusts by what you call "Reiters", similar to Cromwell's ironsides. On foot, you simply thrust ot as you would a foil in a sincope attack.

[Inquartata]

Index finger over the guard, curled around the forte, and perhaps the thumb pressed against the flat of the forte as well. That's why the pas d'anes are there: to protect them.

[wirly]

More info than you may want to know: http://www.thearma.org/Youth/rapieroutline.htm

Reposte: I'm not sure where you got the idea that is a "Swedish rapier." Unless I'm mistaken the country title will probably refer to the country of origin or very specific style by makers from that country. Sweden didn't originate that style rapier as far I can tell (plus reiters are a german type of cavalry, right?).
And for my info, what does "sincope" mean in that context?
thx

[Tydive]

Inquartata, thank you. I was missing how far to bring my thumb around.

Wirly, Wow! That is a really cool web site. Great info to say the least.

[reposte]

Reposte: I'm not sure where you got the idea that is a "Swedish rapier." Unless I'm mistaken the country title will probably refer to the country of origin or very specific style by makers from that country. Sweden didn't originate that style rapier as far I can tell (plus reiters are a german type of cavalry, right?).

I wasn't referring to the specific design, rather to the quality of warfare with a weapon of similar attributes. If you check the web page the original thread had, you'll see it contains references to many rapiers, Bavarian, Dresden, Gustav Vasa (a Swedish king, btw) and so on. That refferes to the design of the weapon but not the school of fighting in general.

The Reiters were most effectivaly used for the first time by Gustav Adolph, the Swedish king that triumphed over the Katholic Holy Roman Empire (i.e, Austria) at Leizen. They have a German name because that was the predominant language in that area (the lineage of the Swedish Kings being German).
A very capturing description of how Reiters were used and how well they faired against lighter cavalry you can find in the Historical fiction "The Deluge" by Henrik Sienkievitc (not spelled proparly) depicting the Swedish invasion of Poland.
Sweden was the number one Superpower in the area, untill the days of Karl the 12, were they were beaten half way through Russia and gave the Russian expression "like the Swedes at Poltawa", meaning beaten sourly and thoroughly.

[Teme]

Too much quillons and too thin blade for a Swedish cavalry sword, IMHO.

And Gustavus Adolphus called his cavalry 'kavalleri', not 'reiters'. Although the older name was 'ryttare', which is of the same origin as 'reiter' and unlike reiters, the swedish cavalrymen were not mercenaries but volunteers of a standing army.
Moreover, if I may add (and definately go off topic), Gustavus Adolphus called his Finnish* cavalry 'Hakkapelites', a name derived from their command for full gallop charge 'hakkaa päälle!' meaning 'hack 'em all' (with a twist of 'whack a mole'). Catholic propaganda had already painted Gustahphus's Samis as witches and devils, but since he had no Sami's with him, the Protestant propaganda picked the Finnish cavalry for the role, and gave them 'a reputation'. Mindgames, eh? Not that they weren't good soldiers, having gained experience against Polish Hussars in Swedish-Polish war at the beginning of the 17th century.
For some reason Swedes never embraced the curved sabre from their Polish and Russian adversaries, although most other cavalries in Europe did.

*Finland was part of Sweden 'proper' at the time, and provided third of the infantry, half of cavalry and two thirds of sailors for Swedish army.

[Cavatione]

Hard to believe the depicted rapier is a cavalry one... seems more a duel-personal defense one... anyway, I'm not interested in starting a discussion...

Inquartata explained pretty properly how to hold a rapier...

Try a later grip, more 17th century than 16th: index and middle finger over the gavigliano, thumb on the flat part of the ricasso

(hope I explained myself properly... )

[VELISARIOS]

Hello Tydive,
I 'll tell you about the Cappo Ferro technics. I hope to help you.
In total in rapier there are six different guards. The primary four as used by Agrippa and Fabris (try to find about them in the network) and two additional that are used primarily with sword and dagger(Italian style). The following is a list of the guards:
A -- Prima -- This guard is similar to that shown by Agrippa and Fabris. The hand is in first position with the arm extended, blade parallel to the ground and hand above head height. Unlike Fabris the feet are separated. The weight appears to be centered between the feet.
B -- Seconda -- The hand is lowered to shoulder height with the hand in second position. Unlike Fabris the feet are separated. The weight seems to be centered between the feet.
C -- Terza -- The hand is in third position and at the middle of the body. The hand should not be held low but at about waist height. The guard is similar to that of Fabris and Agrippa. The weight is more on the back foot.
D -- Quarta -- The hand is in fourth position with the arm extended, hand below shoulder level. The blade is held parallel to the ground. Weight is shifted slightly forward.
E -- Qinta -- This guard is similar to third. The point of the sword dips slightly below the hand and the weight is on the back foot.
F -- Sesta -- This guard is also similar to third. The blade is held with the blade parallel to the ground and the weight is on the forward foot. With a dagger in the left hand the dagger arm is extended at shoulder height and the left shoulder forward.
And now some worlds about the Definition of Distance.
Distance is also known as measure. Measure is the physical distance between you and your opponent. Distance may be deemed oneof the following:
• Out of Distance - The fencers are far enough apart that it takes multiple steps to be close enough to strike.
• Wide Measure - This measure of distance is where it requires a lunge to strike your opponent.
• Narrow Measure - This measure of distanc eis where the opponent may be struck without moving the feet. Either by simply extending the arm or extending the arm with a little bending forward of the body.
There are two parts to offense: seeking the measure and the attack. With this there are three modes of seeking the measure: I move and the adversary is steady, I am steady and the adversary moves, or both move. It is important to be patient. Move in slowly to arrive at the misura larga (wide measure). Your normal combat will take place at wide measure. It is from here that you may work in to narrow measure or attack from wide measure with the lunge.
CU.

[reposte]

And Gustavus Adolphus called his cavalry 'kavalleri', not 'reiters'

Never said otherwise, Reiters are the more common name internationaly and amongst army historians. It's also the word for this type of heavy cavalry in Russian for example.

I suppose the reason the Swedes never adopted the sabre is because they neglected the military option not long afterwards. Gustav the III is the last Swedish king to be remotely successful in battle. Even today Sweden is only good at Epee...

On a more to the topic pint, I watched a show on that type pf lon heavy rapiers. They are by far two ill adapt to fence in, they weer used to thrust into an opponent (thus maximizing their exccesive length) with a sort of cross over fleche when used on foot.
A real good example of a cavalry rapier is in the livsrumkammaren at the royal palace in Stockholm. On the second room dedicated to Karl XII you can see his entire uniform with the blood and mud stains which he wore at his death, and his rapier. It goes as high as his shoulders. Not a good fencing weaopn...

[Zilverzmurfen]

Originally Posted by reposte

A real good example of a cavalry rapier is in the livsrumkammaren at the royal palace in Stockholm.

Since my country seem to have been discussed I just thought I'd point the way to Livrustkammaren (in english) in Stockholm, SWE.

If you visit that site you'll see that they had a fencing exhibition in 2004, as the Swedish Fencing Federation celebrated their 100th year jubilee (13 years before the FIE was founded!).

In connection with the jubilee a book about the history of fencing and its history in general and swedish fencing in particular was released. It was picked as the "Sport Book of the Year".

Ok, sorry for going off-topic but some might be interested...

[reposte]

Jah, I often confuse the spelling when I'm typing fast... I wrote something like the "chamber of the room of life".... of course it's livrustkammaren...

[Zilverzmurfen]

It's ok, I could never be offended if someone tries to speak or write in my language!

I haven't seen you for quite some time, by the way. Hope you're ok down in Israel!

[Teme]

Even better site for Swedish weapons is Armemuseum, (here's framed version) where I had the pleasure visiting last weekend. There was also a chace to try epee with young Swedish fencers in the third floor corridor, but I had to pass since my family was pushing forward to visit the Vattenmuseum, too...

It is my understanding that by Swedish this kind of cavalry was considered light, even Gustavus had cuirassiers for the heavy duty. Besides, the expansionist policy of Sweden continued for 150 years after Gustavus Adolphus, right until the end of 18th century.

[Zilverzmurfen]

The heavy cavalry would surely be the Moose cavalry suggested by king Karl XII.

[reposte]

Besides, the expansionist policy of Sweden continued for 150 years after Gustavus Adolphus, right until the end of 18th century.

Well Teme, being a Finn, you would say that, won't you...

From a more pan European point of you, Sweden lost its stormakts' pretences right after Gustav III. His naval triumph over the Russians is considered the last great Swedish triumph.

Thank you for you concern, Zilverzmurfen.
Jag kan tala Svenska ganska bra, faktiskt!

[Tydive]

VELISARIOS, thank you for the info.

As for the Swedish off topic stuff, keep it coming. I like to learn about how different weapons were used. I have a small but interesting collection of weapons (all functional) and try to train enough to be competant in there use. Most of my training is actually in unarmed combat so it's fun to combine aspects of Eastern and Western martial arts and see what happens.

[morael]

If you like rapier, there's a beautiful book called Arte of Defense, by William E. Wilson (www. chivalrybookshelf.com). It shows the positions of feet and hands with clear illustrations, and it features lots of (mediocre quality digital) pictures of gorgeous weapons.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by reposte

The Katholic Holy Roman Empire

A bit off topic, but that would be a TREMEDOUS name for a rock band.