How to hold a rapier?

[reposte]

If I said that having Swedish in mind I spelled it as in Swedish...?

[Teme]

Originally Posted by reposte

Well Teme, being a Finn, you would say that, won't you...

I'd rather say the Finns made Sweden a stormakt

And I'd still like to argue that the reiters and Swedish cavalry were two totally different kind of force. Reiters were specialized in caracole, the very abasement of cavalry warfare, and they wore whole body armor. Trained for 'missile' warfare, they were not expected to use sword until as a last, desperate measure.
The Swedish cavalry, on the other hand, after having it's *** handed to it by the Polish hussars in first decade if the 17th century, went for the 'cold steel' or 'shock and awe' tactics. They wore only a helmet and a breastplate (and that mainly on the first row and flanks), attacked in full gallop, reins free for in the left hand the first row had a flint-lock pistol, in the right the sword. 15 - 20 meters before the enemy line the pistols were fired and put away (to a holster in saddle, there was second pistol on the right side). The volley of bullets from point blank range and the closing in mass of horses and men would most certainly open gaps in the ranks of receiving enemy unit, the galloping horses would crash into those gaps, the hacking and thrusting horsemen forcing their way through. The enemy unit would loose it's cohesion, and turn into a retreat. Now the second and third rows of riders would use their two pistols for a good effect, and the whole unit would return behind their own musketeers to reorganize.
Horses being smarter than men in war, an attack against cavalry unit would result the enemy horses giving way even faster. And on the same note, the only way to stop such a charge was to hold the lines rigid and keep on firing. No horse will gallop into a wall of men, steel and lead. The horses will steer away and the cavalry will become disorganized and has to retreat.

[Zilverzmurfen]

Originally Posted by Teme

I'd rather say the Finns made Sweden a stormakt

Would you now..?! *cough*


And reposte, your swedish is very good indeed!

[VELISARIOS]

Thats nice!
I do the same with western weapons and eastern. But each weapon has their own technick. Some of them are similar but othes has great differsnses.

[reposte]

Gentlemen, before we start a new front, let me settle the score on two accounts:
Firstly, I think that Teme and I have different ideas of "Reiter": What you have described as Swedish cavalry I reffered to as a "Reiter": A cavalry adorned with breast plate, armed with pistoles and - and here we're back at the original topic - a very heavy rapier.
I've added a link to a page dedicated to Cromwell's ironsides and you can see the armor and helmet of a Reiter.
Teme, what you think to be my idea of a reiter is infact what Sienkiewic calls:
Husaria, that is, full armor cavalry, indeed as heavy as it gets.
The ligher type of Polish cavalry is dragoons - no armor Cossacks or Polish Lithuanian gentry, armed with a Polish sabre. Not the modern familiar Italian one but the next best thing in terms of the times.

As for the Finnish/Swedish local patriotism, I wouldn't go as far as Teme, but I must concede that reading Herman Lindqvist's "Historien om Sverige" dedicated to Gustav III it was said that the Finnish profesional military academies were probably the best in the world at that time, and finnish gentry composed the elite of the Swedish army. I am ignorant as for whether they were the Finns from the Hungarian origin or newly come Swedish gentry, I never heard of the Sumi contribution to warfare, that's interesting news to me!

[Tydive]

Morael, Thank you very much for the book info. There is just something about a rapier, it's a very elegant weapon and when combined with a good off hand daggar you can cover long and short range combat very well.

Velisarios, Exactly. I really enjoy finding the right way to use a weapon within a given context. Oddly the one weapon that seems to translate best for me vs pretty much any other weapon is a 18" - 29" nightstick. Good for defense, offense, non leathal take downs etc. The best part is that most of my empty hand techniques translate well to stick work. Blade work is very different depending on the style of blade and tends to lend itself to more lethal applications.

[Zilverzmurfen]

Originally Posted by reposte

Gentlemen, before we start a new front

I am not a 'gentleman' but I take the liberty of intruding in your conversation anyway!

First a little something about the swedish 'kavalleriet' (cavalry):

I början användes beteckningen rytteriet om de enheter som stred på hästryggen, exempelvis Smålands ryttare och Upplands ryttare. Senare började namnet kavalleri mer att användas. Även inom kavalleriet har det funnits olika namn på kavalleriförbanden:

Dragon: Från början var en dragon en beriden infanterist. De red till slagfältet men steg sen av och stred som vanligt infanteri (fotfolket). Genom att de var beridna infanterister blev de förband som snabbt kunde förflyttas. Det hände även att de sattes in som rytteri i slagen. Detta var dock en arbetsuppgift som de inte var tränade för och kunde sluta illa. Ett exempel där dragoner användes som rytteri är slaget vid Lund 1676.

Under 1700-talet kom dragoner mer och mer att utnyttjas som rytteri och tillslut återstod enbart namnet som skillnad mot det lätta kavalleriet. Under 1800-talet kom dragonerna att räknas som tungt kavalleri.

Husar: Husarer var från början beteckningen tungt kavalleri i Ungern. I Sverige började man sätta upp husarregementen under 1700-talet. De var beväpnade med sabel och karbin. Husarerna bar dolma fram till 1870-talet då attila började användas som livplagg.

Attila var en kort rock med snörmakerier eller band tvärs över bröstet, vanligen i fem rader. Dolman var den ursprungliga husarjackan. Den karaktäriseras av de många snörena, som förbinder knapparna på bröstet. Så småningom blir snörbeläggningen på dolman så tät att den täcker hela bröstet.

Kyrassiär: Kyrassiärer var namnet på det tunga kavalleriet. Ordet kommer från kyrass som var namnet på den harnesk de bar som skydd. Under 1600-talet blev de helt harneskklädda ryttarna allt för otympliga och man började använda ett lättare kyrass och hjälm. Beväpningen var rad värja och pistol.

De kyrassiäriska ryttarna var storvuxna och tyngden från harnesk var stor vilket innebar att det krävdes stora hästar för att bära dem. Kyrassiärsregementen, dvs tungt kavalleri kom under 1800-talet mer och mer likna övrigt kavalleri.

Lansiär: Lansbeväpnad ryttare. De var på 15- och 1600-tal tungt lansbeväpnat rytteri. Under 1700-talet och fram till första världskriget har lansiärerna även kallats ulaner.

The text above is taken from this webpage.

I would admit that both you and Teme probably have a deeper insight in this but I just though I would add some various links that might be of interest to you: (NB: These are all in swedish or norwegian. You both are likely to understand it, to the rest of you - sorry!)

• Livgardets dragoners historia.
• General facts about the swedish "Livgardet" (links at bottom of page).
• K4 - Norrlands dragonregemente.
• Nordiskt forum för samlande av militaria och annat ur vår historia.
• Kavalleri.
• Lätt och tungt kavalleri.
• Husartroppen i Skåne.
• Karl XIIs dragoner i Hakadal (Norge).
• Homepage of the swedish author and historian Peter Englund.

Edit:

May I add that my current signature comes from Livregementets Husarer, K3. Pergite is latin for Forward!

[reposte]

Well, as you can see, the source of any confusion in names is that the sources you've used refer to the various Swedish cavalry units and traditions.
My definition of Reiters find more equivalnce in the Kyrassiärer .
At least we've achieved one goal: A recognition in Sweden's one time military reputation... many people think that Sweden stands for nothing else than peaceful neutrality, little do they know that it was one of the most powerful nations in the world at one point.
Why do you think that there is only decent Epee fencing in Sweden?

[Zilverzmurfen]

Originally Posted by reposte

Why do you think that there is only decent Epee fencing in Sweden?

Because épée is the only decent weapon!
(That was an invitation I just couldn't miss...sorry!)

To be honest I don't really know. We used to have a few decent foilists (or at least one... ) but 'modern' fencing in Sweden has always been épée. It might be a result (no, this is not the proper word...) of the cavalry (dragoner and husarer)? I am sure you have a better theory than I do!

To be honest I am a little surprised that sabre is not bigger in Sweden. Fencing has always been an Armed Forces sport (and is even today, no surprises there) and even our swedish police wore sabres until the late 1960's.

[reposte]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even for a nation in which Olympic sports are very well received in society and sport in general is a part of the overal population's pastime, fencing is very much neglected in Sweden, in comparison say to equivalent countries such as Germany and so on?

[Zilverzmurfen]

Originally Posted by reposte

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even for a nation in which Olympic sports are very well received in society and sport in general is a part of the overal population's pastime, fencing is very much neglected in Sweden, in comparison say to equivalent countries such as Germany and so on?

Unfortunately you are not wrong...

It is a very sad fact that I can not understand the reasons for. As we all know, fencing is an interesting sport that involves both mental and physical powers. All I can do is try to be a good ambassador for my sport.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Zilverzmurfen

Because épée is the only decent weapon!

You meant 'descent'. Epee fell from Heaven along with the Adversary, who surely invented it...

[Zilverzmurfen]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Epee fell from Heaven

Hear ye the wisdom of this man - épée is indeed Heaven sent!

[Inquartata]

So was Satan.

[Teme]

Originally Posted by reposte

Gentlemen, before we start a new front, let me settle the score on two accounts:

Sorry if I came out too hars, that was not my intention.

I can see we just have different terminolgy (which is not suprising since even contemporaries were not always certain about it). The classification I've accustomed to equates reiters with quirassiers, that is, heavy cavalry with pistols as main weapons. Polish hussars are like heavy lancers/ulans, whereas Gustavus's cavalry was, as you point out, 'medium' just like the New Model Army cavalry (they actually copied from the Royalists who had copied the Swedes). Let's not go to dragoons...

As for the Finnish/Swedish local patriotism, I wouldn't go as far as Teme

Oh, I was just yanking ZZ's chain a bit. That's what we neighbours do once in a while... (sorry, zz)

Herman Lindqvist ... said that the Finnish profesional military academies were probably the best in the world at that time...

To be fair, there was only one, Haapaniemi Krigskola, and it was one of the few in Europe at the time, being founded in 1779. Sandhurst came about in 1799, West Point 1802, Saint-Cyr 1808...
But it did provide the Swedish and Russian armies with plenty of generals.

I am ignorant as for whether they were the Finns from the Hungarian origin or newly come Swedish gentry

Finns are not Hungarian origin! We share same ancestry, thousands of years back, though. What comes to the ethnicity of Finnish gentry, it was a happy mixture of Swedish, Finnish, German, Baltic, Dutch and Scottish geneaologies. Remarkably, while in the 17th century even the common Finns felt themselves as Swedes by nationality, albeit not ethnically, by 18th century even the gentry started to consider themselves Finns by nationality. Go figure...

I never heard of the Sumi contribution to warfare, that's interesting news to me!

That's because there was no contribution by the Sami. Other than being the 'diabolic beasts of Gustavus' in Catholic propaganda. Gustavus himself saw the value of terrifying the opponent, and turned the propaganda against it's initiators. But since he had no Sami in his army, he gave the role to his Finns, which were close enough linguistically, ethnically and were similarly unknown people to central Europeans.

[reposte]

It isn't often I get to be a part of so illuminating a thread, I only wish we didn't stray so off topic, but imagin a thread dedicated to Swedish/Polish cavalry through the 16-18th century being formed... How often does that happen...
I think however that we all agree that - to serve the original topic - a rapier is originally to cumbersome a weapon to serve in any kind of elaborate fencing school, rather is a thrusting weapon?

[Inquartata]

Heh, depends on what you mean by 'elaborate'. ( And for that matter what you mean by 'rapier'. ) Have you ever read some of the historical manuals on the use of the rapier? The Spanish destreza for example is about as complex as you'd ever want to see---mysterious circles and chords and all that.

Lengthy tickety-tappity parry-riposte series, like in foil? Gymnastic footwork combinations? No. But some of the old rapier play is not that far removed from epee, or a combination of epee and sabre...

[Tydive]

My rapier is a thrusting weapon, with the option for draw cuts as well. I agree with you Inq about it being like epee with a small bit of sabre, depending heavily on which style of repier you have.

Reposte, I don't think of it as cumbersome. It's a very fast weapon, that can change lines much quicker than you would think. My hand and a half sword is slower even though it has a shorter blade than the rapier. Part of that is the sword is more of a cutting blade, but even point in line it can't do what the rapier can. That said, I would use the sword vs armored opponants and the rapier vs unarmored.

[Sildar]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Heh, depends on what you mean by 'elaborate'. ( And for that matter what you mean by 'rapier'. ) Have you ever read some of the historical manuals on the use of the rapier? The Spanish destreza for example is about as complex as you'd ever want to see---mysterious circles and chords and all that.

Lengthy tickety-tappity parry-riposte series, like in foil? Gymnastic footwork combinations? No. But some of the old rapier play is not that far removed from epee, or a combination of epee and sabre...

As someone who has been practicing rapier for a while, and who has handled a number of original rapiers, I would also like to add that there are no modern-made production line rapiers which accurately reproduce the feel and handling characteristics of well-made period rapiers. Arms and Armor does very nice work, but their rapiers still feel heavy and clunky in the hand compared to many of the old weapons. I've handled several original rapiers which make many modern epees feel poorly balanced and sluggish by comparison, even with blades of 40 inches or more.

The bladework in rapier is often just as sophisticated as in foil, but the techniques are different. As Inq said, some techniques resemble epee, some resemble sabre.

[Kettu]

Teme, perhaps you could point me towards some sources regarding the Finnish forces and aristocracy of these periods; as it is, I have a great deal of interest in the Finnish culture and know little of the history. Thank you for any help.

Andrew Eerikäinen