Make the Call- Chest/Breast Protectors

[counter riposte]

Hey All,

Had this situation come up this weekend regarding the female breast protectors in foil.

Fencer reports to strip with Breast Protectors over the jacket, yet under the lame.

I saw the FOC ruling that "Breast protectors/chest protection : The use of breast protectors/chest protection at Foil is authorised for Men and Women providing that they are worn directly on the skin for Men and over the T-shirt for Women. Urgent decision. Immediate application."

Hence, what is the proper penalty under cf. t.114. t.116, t.120.?
Group 1 (Y): Clothing or equipment not conforming to regulations
Group 3 (R): Intentional modification of equipment or Dishonest fencing
Group 4 (B): Manifest Cheating with equipment.

The BC was leaning to the last option. (Group 4)

[fencerontheline]

I'd decide based on percieved intent.

[noodle]

i picked no penalty.

why?
1) its supposed to be something the ref checks for
2) not everyone has seen this FOC ruling. its not in the rulebook and the new times are not set in stone "yet".
3) the ruling has no specific consequence attached to it.
4) its a mistake that is honest and I knew people who wore their protectors like that BEFORE the new timings. i'd feel like an *** having to DQ a new fencer because they put on something in reverse order.

[kalivor]

I said group 3, but then re-read the rules. Now I think it could be a group 3 or a group 1.

The reasoning:

Pertinent bits ...
From t.45,
1. If a fencer appears on the strip ... -- with a conductive jacket that does not conform .... -- with clothing which does not conform

= yellow card.

3. If a fencer appears on the strip ...:

b) Does not conform to the rules in a way not covered by the preliminary check -- penalized as specified in Articles t.114, t.116, t.120

t.114 = Yellow card

c) Has passed preliminary check, but has irregularities which could have been made deliberately.

= Group 3 Red Card.

e) has been altered in any way to allow recording of touches or nonfunctioning of the apparatus at will

= Group 4, Black Card.

It seems pretty clear that (e) doesn't apply. There's no "at will" about it, it simply makes hits less likely to land. Hence, not "Manifest Cheating." No black card.

I think it comes down to the referee. If he or she "gathered the competitors on the strip ..." as it says to in t.43, and included a chest-plate check, then this is clearly a case for t.45 3 (c), and a group three red should be given.

If there was no such check, then it's merely a deficiency in the equipment, and a group one (yellow) should be given. It's more similar to having a lame that doesn't fit than anything else, I would think ...

[counter riposte]

Base it on new timings and a very experienced fencer

[Alan]

no penalty of course.

It is the timings which are broken.

Correct the source of the problem not the consequence.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by counter riposte

Base it on new timings and a very experienced fencer

My analysis still stands.

It's not a black card, as it gives the fencer no control over whether lights come on or stay off, which is the requirement for "manifest cheating."

The remainder of the rules provide the following details:

Protective equipment that doesn't conform with the rules, including a jacket that is "too smooth" in epee = Group One offense.
Lame that doesn't properly cover target area = Group One offense.
Equipment does not conform in a way not covered by the preliminary check = Group One offense.
Preliminary check was passed, but alterations have been made that *could have* been purposeful (but weren't necessarily) = Group Three offense.

It seems really clear to me:

If the fencer was checked, and the chest plate was directly over the T-Shirt, but found its way outside the jacket for the start of the bout ... it's a group three.

If the fencer was not previously checked, and merely reported to piste with the chest plate outside the jacket, it should be a group one offense.

For Noodle: The equipment doesn't conform to the rules. It doesn't matter if the fencer is unaware of it, or that the FIE announcement doesn't say specifically what to do if a fencer reports with equipment that doesn't conform in this matter ... it just doesn't conform.

In your instance, the unaware fencer would simply get a yellow card, and learn from it. A fencer who reported to piste with it underneath the jacket and then changed it for the bout would know what they were doing, and deserve the group three.

[oiuyt]

I'd say group I (non-conforming equipment), but NOT due to the FIE ruling that you cited. Assuming that this was in the US, the FIE ruling is not yet in effect (AFAIK). The applicable ruling is the USFA Exec. Comm. ruling that no hard protective layer can be worn outside of the jacket or knickers. I expect that the USFA will continue to mirror the ever-changing FIE rulings, but there's some lag time in the process. Put the protector inside the jacket but outside the t-shirt and, for men, you comply with USFA rules but violate FIE rules.

-B :)

[noodle]

Originally Posted by kalivor

For Noodle: The equipment doesn't conform to the rules. It doesn't matter if the fencer is unaware of it, or that the FIE announcement doesn't say specifically what to do if a fencer reports with equipment that doesn't conform in this matter ... it just doesn't conform.

only reason i didn't pick yellow card is because i've only read the FIE version, not the FOC version. i know it exists, but i've never seen anything about it, here or on usfa.org. there's something about it on fencingofficials.org, but it doesn't say to enforce it and with what strength. i'd also like to note that it says its illegal for men to wear the protector over anything, it has to be on the skin. would you card someone for wearing it over their tshirt?

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by noodle

only reason i didn't pick yellow card is because i've only read the FIE version, not the FOC version. i know it exists, but i've never seen anything about it, here or on usfa.org. there's something about it on fencingofficials.org, but it doesn't say to enforce it and with what strength. i'd also like to note that it says its illegal for men to wear the protector over anything, it has to be on the skin. would you card someone for wearing it over their tshirt?

Well, likely not, as I only direct at low-level Canadian events. No new timings, so that makes this a non-issue. If I were directing a tournament with the new timings, then yes, I would.

Now that I'm looking at this ... the bigger issue is female breast protectors which are salad-bowl style, rather than protecting the whole chest. These normally go into pockets in the jacket, and thus would be over top of the sous-plastron -- a no-no by the text of the most recent FIE ruling on the matter.

I wouldn't be so comfortable handing out cards for that ...

[Purple Fencer]

If the USFA hasn't adopted the ruling for US comps, I would advise the fencer to wear the protector underneath the white jacket...if she refused, THEN I'd throw a yellow (t.82 t.84...refusal to obey the referee).

[oso97]

Hrmmmm... m'thinks we need an official ruling on this.....

Bill Oliver, you around?

[parrythis]

Originally Posted by noodle

2) not everyone has seen this FOC ruling. its not in the rulebook ...

I think that "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." applies here. Unless you can come up with an example of a situation in which a fencer could avoid a card for any other infraction simply by saying, "Oh, sorry, I didn't know", then I would say this argument holds no water.

[CvilleFencer]

First, it is not a card, as this is an FIE rule and not in the rulebook handed out by the USFA or in any updates that I have seen. US refs at US events have no real reason to worry about this at all. Second, it should be made clear that this bull**** rule only applies to foilists, as it is only a lame attempt to fix the horrible screwed up timings without saying that the FIE sucks and does not care at all about the people who actually play the sport. You can ask her (the fencer in question) to put it under her jacket, but if she says something to the effect of "blow me unless you can show me in the rule book" the only thing you can really do is card her for disobediance and hope the BC backs you up.

If it was a big/important/qualifier tourney and the BC threw a black card for this I would hope the fencer in question would sue the hell out of the FIE, USFA, the Division, the BC and the Ref in question. It may be the only way to fix these poorly thought out half assed rullings that the FIE keeps handing down. For once a LOT of bad press for the sport may be the only thing to get cockroach and his paid for toads in the Whereveristan fencing "federations" to back off.

I seem to get really cranky whenever yet another stupid side effect of the new timings pops up. Sorry for being a grump...

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by parrythis

I think that "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." applies here. Unless you can come up with an example of a situation in which a fencer could avoid a card for any other infraction simply by saying, "Oh, sorry, I didn't know", then I would say this argument holds no water.

How about something like it's not in the USFA rules!!! It would be like blackcarding someone for showing up without their country colors on their leg or FIE gear fopr an unrated high school tourney. Lets not get too "burn the witch, the law is god" here and just take a deep breath and remeber that the FIE is the enemy. Not fencers just trying to play the game with whatever half baked rules changes have come out THIS week.

[counter riposte]

No need to take it personal, you weren't the one that did such a deed. We're just having a discussion....

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by counter riposte

No need to take it personal, you weren't the one that did such a deed. We're just having a discussion....

No no, I am fine! I did not take it personal at all, and again I am sorry for being a grump. But as I said the new timings and now these "fixes" are going to cause/have caused so many problems that I just get really worked up talking about them. I did not mean to bite you head off Parrythis, although I think my point still stands, even if I did "yell" a bit the first time. Sorry for being grumpy with you however.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

How about something like it's not in the USFA rules!!! It would be like blackcarding someone for showing up without their country colors on their leg or FIE gear fopr an unrated high school tourney. Lets not get too "burn the witch, the law is god" here and just take a deep breath and remeber that the FIE is the enemy. Not fencers just trying to play the game with whatever half baked rules changes have come out THIS week.

Well, the new timings aren't in the USFA rulebook, either. If you've got the new timings on the box, why not refuse to fence until they provide a scoring machine that complies to the rules?

Quite frankly, it's obvious that different tournaments use different standards.

Your run of the mill USFA tournament, you don't need a name on your back, or FIE gear.
Your run of the mill Canadian tournament, you don't need a name on your back, or a sousplastron, if you've got an FIE jacket.

If you're going to a tournament that's being run on the new timings, you deal with the new timing rules or don't go. These rules aren't in ANY rulebook, and won't be until it's no longer a "test."

Hate the new timings, hate the FIE ... it's your perogative. But don't snap at parrythis just because he expects people who attend tournaments with the new timings to abide by the other rules that go along with it.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by kalivor

Well, the new timings aren't in the USFA rulebook, either. If you've got the new timings on the box, why not refuse to fence until they provide a scoring machine that complies to the rules?

In the US at least, what type of timings the tourney will run under must be announced in advance, and the USFA has stated that all national level tourneys will run under the new timings via official distribution to Division officers and so forth. Since that is the law of the land at the time, the above would not be an option. Also it is possible that some divisions are not running under the new timings for local level events, but I don't know of any.

Quite frankly, it's obvious that different tournaments use different standards.

Your run of the mill USFA tournament, you don't need a name on your back, or FIE gear.
Your run of the mill Canadian tournament, you don't need a name on your back, or a sousplastron, if you've got an FIE jacket.

If you're going to a tournament that's being run on the new timings, you deal with the new timing rules or don't go. These rules aren't in ANY rulebook, and won't be until it's no longer a "test."

You are quite right in that different countries do things different as far as the rules. I am not sure how things work in Canada, but in the US, or maybe I should just say in the VA division, unless the USFA has sent out something for urgent implementation as I understand it, a group of tourney organizers risks the validity of their tourney (as far as awarding new ratings, counting for qualifiers, etc) if they make add hock rules/restrictions or changes that are not laid out in the USFA rules, with all the relevant updates to the core rulebook.

I do not know of any USFA errata or updates that mandates how the chest plate for women shall be worn, nor does it lay out any penalties if the chest plate is worn over the jacket. This is what I meant by it not being in the rules, unless I have missed an update somewhere along the line. To blackcard a fencer that may or may not have been informed of any "special" rules that do no appear in any publications or announcements by our governing body is to invite disaster.

Hate the new timings, hate the FIE ... it's your perogative. But don't snap at parrythis just because he expects people who attend tournaments with the new timings to abide by the other rules that go along with it.

I do hate the new timings, but I know I need to dial back my resentment and bitterness about them so that I can have a civil discussion about them. Screaming and yelling at each other will not be constructive and I already said I was sorry to Parrythis. As to abiding by the other rules that go along with fencing at a tourney under the new timings, just expecting a fencer to miraculously know about them is not reasonable or fair and that was my point, under all the shouting and whining... Tell her to put it on under her jacket. If she does not card her for disobedience, but we should not be making up offense and then deciding what card to give out.