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Barry Paul · 02-01-2005, 08:27 AM

Reports have come back that one of the top U.K foil fencers James Beavers lost two fight in Venice 5 to 4 because of what looked like valid hits not registering.

Is it happening in training?
Is there a difference between apparatuses?

Follow this link to see whipped hits onto a hard surface not registering (note this was harder to do with the old timings.)

http://fencingforum.com/forum/images/foilhit-1.htm

or possibly

Now that the non valid time is the same as valid time to score a non valid hit, try fencing without a lame and see if you can get non valid hits in the middle of the target that are not registering. If you can the problem is that the circuit in the point is not being broken for 15 ms. ( the hit is too fast.) If you cannot then it is more likely to be a shorting problem, see below.

One possibility is that when the target is hit due to the longer time it is possible for the lame to wrap round the point and short between the top of the point and the barrel of the point top (This is the outside of the point top the metal sleeve which touches and slides in the point base.) I have given some of our sponsored fencers either standard Leon Paul point tops which have a plastic barrel and therefore cannot be shorted or some specially made G.T point tops with insulated barrels. As the non-occurrence of hits is not so many I have had no feedback if this has made a difference.

Barry

veeco · 02-01-2005, 08:44 AM

Both hits are border line ones. Because you do the extension from a low guard, you have a high probability of having hits that are "plaque". I would venture to guess that it is possible to reproduce the same kind of behavior with an epee.

In other words, these are not "straight hits" that don't register. It's normal they don't register, because you are not hitting with the point, but hitting with the blade.

I am not saying that it is not possible to have straight hits that don't register, but the ones in your video, as far as I am concerned, it is normal they don't register.

Barry Paul · 02-01-2005, 09:16 AM

Most of the hits shown in the video seem to score with the old timing. But I do agree the hits are being whipped in. Most peole looking at these hits would be suprised they did not register.

Of course with a soft target these hits are much more likely to register.

TheArmourer · 02-01-2005, 09:41 AM

Is there any difference between using an "insulated barrel" and good thick layer of insulating tape around the barrel?

Barry Paul · 02-01-2005, 10:03 AM

The barrel is the sliding surface component of the point top. So what is your question?

TheArmourer · 02-01-2005, 10:49 AM

Ah I see. The convention I'm used to uses "barrel" to refer to what I think you call the "base".

As far as I remember, the barel you're refering to has a flange behind the button on the end of the tip. Is this what you think the lame is contacting?

grotto · 02-01-2005, 10:57 AM

barry, I wouldn't be supprised at all that this didn't "stick" as the point is not ever really perpenducular to the target, and the pressure from the extension drags the point upward, not into the target. In the steam fencing days this sort of thing would most likely be called flat or passe. Yes it would have worked with the old timings, seems to me this is exactly the sort of thing the FIE is trying to "fix" with the new timings. Now whether or not this is a good thing is another question entirely. As for training, this sort of extension is what I try and correct in my students, (they get instant lesson on extensions if I see it, but thats jist me.)

Mergs · 02-01-2005, 11:35 AM

Barry,

I don't think that there is a 'problem' per se, as since I came back to the new timings, I've had numerous occasions where a touch that looked like it hit valid didn't go off. I even had an instance during a tournament where the referee called a halt when he saw the point land, and the box didn't register it. Most frustrating! And I believe it's going to make the sport more dangerous as younger, more out of control fencers try to hit harder in order to make the point.

Am seriously re-evaluating whether I want to continue competing.

Barry Paul · 02-01-2005, 11:39 AM

The Amourer YES.

All I am illustrating is a hit to a hard surface which is whipped in which under the old timing would register but now does not.

Failure to score an apparent valid hit is due to three or so different failure modes.

I am told that perfectly good hits, Not whipped in, do not register on rare ocasions.

However if you hit the valid target for 15 ms with out breaking contact between the valid target and the point top and the with the point remains depressed for 15 ms (the circuit is broken) a valid hit will be scored. Barry

oso97 · 02-01-2005, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mergs

Barry,

I don't think that there is a 'problem' per se, as since I came back to the new timings, I've had numerous occasions where a touch that looked like it hit valid didn't go off. I even had an instance during a tournament where the referee called a halt when he saw the point land, and the box didn't register it. Most frustrating! And I believe it's going to make the sport more dangerous as younger, more out of control fencers try to hit harder in order to make the point.

Am seriously re-evaluating whether I want to continue competing.

Mike,

Just pick up sabre!

Larrison · 02-01-2005, 12:59 PM

Just watched the video --

Hmm.. as a fencer who primarily fences "dry" (non electric), I would have called those hits as "flat" and a non-valid touch. I then went back and reran the video several times, trying to get a frame-by-frame look at the action. it appears the point comes out and contacts the target flat (side of the point) -- at best on the corner of the tip -- and then the end of the blade is pressed flat against the target by the continued motion of the fencer's arm.

So, while I understand that with an electric box and old timings these might have scored, they would have been at best sloppy touches. The flicks I have seen succeed typically try to place the flat of the tip (the point) directly on the target, and not try to just touch the side of the tip against the target.

As it is, from these attacks I'd be willing to argue (based upon a grainy video) that the point was never depressed. With that motion (almost a sweep up to press the side of the blade against the targe), which results in scraping the side of the blade against a rough concrete block wall, I'd say that there was pretty good odds the point was never depressed.

Now, if you you tried a straight hit, or a straight flick to the wall and were able to show no lights -- that would be something else.

Mergs · 02-01-2005, 01:26 PM

oso97, you have me at a disadvantage, but seeing that you are in dallas, I'm sure we know each other!

As for Saber, I have been considering it since my time in Baghdad working with Dan Gorman. Don't know. Will have to give the whole thing some prayful consideration. For some reason the fire just isn't there anymore (maybe it's just been banked for a while).

Back to the topic at hand. If you look at the data Cowpaste collected in another thread about the timing of flicks, he concluded that the previous 'good' flicks, the ones that land with the point perpendicular to the surface (or normal to the surface) did not stay depressed long enough to score. This make sense because of the spring wanting to return the tip to the initial position. What he found was that 'bad' flicks, where the tip came in at an oblique angle, tended to score more often. I think this is because the momentum of the blade moving forward, thus in line with the direction of the tip movement, over-rode the return action of the spring and thus allowed it to be depressed longer and score.

Just my $.02