Leg pain advice, anyone?

[Aziz]

This is my first post, I was hoping that it would be about something else but it isn't. (Something like, I can't find anyone to fence with because I never loose. How can I fake loosing once in a while so that no one will know. (Don't think this one is going to be a problem though.))

Anyway, I have only been fencing about 6 months, -1.5 due to pain in my knees and feet. The knees started while I was fencing and the feet after I stopped from the pain in my knees so it may not be related.

My question is how to avoid this from happening again in the future and or what to do to improve the situation.

I am 35, a little over weight. Most of my work is on a computer so I have spent a number of years with out much exercise. I do have very bad ankles that twist easily but have never had pain in my feet or legs except for twisting or walking to much, or twisting my ankle.

Knees: Started bothering me with a very intense pain behind my right (right handed fencer) knee cap, to the point that it would almost collapse if I put all of my weight on it and I could only go up one step at a time. Now it is much better but it gets a little tight if I go up and down stars a large flight of stars. This started after I began to learn saber and aside from practice the only strenuous activity that I did with my knees was squats.

Foot: Probably not related to fencing but it will defiantly slow me down. This pain is on the opposite side (Left) and began after I stopped fencing. Again it started out with fairly server pain running the length of the top of my foot. At rest it is not much bother but movement and walking cause it. It feels like 2 strands of rubber sliding against each other and the pain is sharp and intense but stop as soon as movement or pressure stops. Rubbing it also causes pain. This also is not nearly as bad but I do still feel it.

No offense but please only answer if you have had the same problem(s) or you have some medical background (Nurse, MD, Physical Therapist, Coach etc.)


Thank you,
Aziz

[ThatReallyHurt]

I've had a sore knee in a similar way to how you explained - feeling like it won't bear any weight, like the kneecap is going to push out and fall off... It happened about a month after I stared fencing (I've been fencing for about 4 and a half months now). Three things I can think of that helped me:

- I'm what you would call "somewhat overweight" as well. However, I've lost around 20 lbs. since I started fencing, and while 20 may not seem like much, it makes an awful lot of difference to my knees, hips, and ankles.

- Exercising outside the club is helping me a lot, too. I practice some fencing footwork in the basement, do some stretching, and walk/jog on the treadmill.

- I wasn't doing my lunges properly. I was planting my front foot way too close and lunging past my own front foot (if that makes any sense). A little bit of time with my coach, and that was fixed. Before I started lunging properly, my shin, knee, and thigh would be very sore for about two days after every fencing class. Now, they don't bother me at all.

The bottom line is, if you're concerned about it (and you should be, what with needing those parts to walk around and all), talk to a doctor. With something like a knee or foot, I don't think it's really a good idea to try to self-diagnose. Once you're feeling better and fencing again, talk to your coach and make sure you're doing stuff properly.

I hope you get better soon!

[Orangeaholic]

I have the same exact problems. My best advice is to make sure to loosen up the body parts you have problems with. Then after you fence stretch out after you fence. It keeps your muscles loose, and can relieve the pain a lot of the pain.

[Katman]

Strech properly and keep and eye on your form. Consult your coach about pain or, if you need to, an orthopedist (go right over the general practice dude's head if you can ). As you become stronger and lose weight, pain should occur less but if it's 'bad joint pain' that's happening and not 'good I'm getting stronger raarrr' pain, then you need to investigate.

Also,

"Aziz! Light!"

Couldn't help it.

[parryDoh]

Pain behind the kneecap is probably runners knee. I get runners knee and shin splints from fencing and running to warm up while wearing fencing shoes because I have flat feet. If you have flatfeet then that may be the cause of all ur leg pain. Check out Flatfoot.com if you are. I just ordered the flatfeet inserts they offer, I will let you know how they turn out.

[Cipher]

It sounds like a strength issue. When I joined the Army I went from computer geek to combat soldier. For the first year I got pain in all sorts of places, including the same knee pain that you described. Gradually as I became stronger and more accustomed to the workload I suffered less and less until it stopped bothering me completely. My experience after the Army (education in kinesiology) also leads me to a similar conclusion.

My advise is this:
-lose some weight. Extra pounds puts extra strain on your joints. In high impact exercise that can be very dangerous.
-strength training. The best way to protect a joint and prevent pain is to strengthen the muscles surrounding the joint. Get a good program for working the knees and ankles.
-flexibility. When flexibility lacks in fencing some people compensate at the expense of good form... especially when tired. Good form is good for a reason. Among other things, it prevents movement related injuries.

As for the pain in the feet... I would suggest going to a doctor. It could be anything from flat feet to a stress fractured metatarsal. There's so much going on inside a foot that you need to get that checked out by a professional if the pain does not subside on its own.

[aisha]

Hi Aziz,

It looks like you've gotten great advice. I'll add a couple of things-I started fencing last summer, have gone through various similar aches and pains-some have been related to increasing my level of fitness, and others were specific to fencing. Here are a couple of ideas.

1.) Fitness is comprised of: cardio, strength, flexibility, and balance. All of these aspects need to be worked on, in a gradual and consistent manner. I emphasize core fitness. Although I have heard many fencers say that the best way to get into shape is to do more fencing, that is only one aspect. Also, sometimes clubs have warmups and drills. These are good and important, but do not feel compelled to keep up with everyone. Getting into shape (or increasing one's fitness and moving to a higher level) involves thinking ahead of time how this will get done. There are many excellent books ( I recommend Human Kinetics books for their high degree of professionalism-they also have a bk. on fencing) that cover all of these points and can help you develop a safe and productive program.

2.) Losing weight is obvious, but not easy, because you should not increase your fitness program by more than 10%/week (whether amount of time, weight, distance or speed). Training injuries may not occur immediately, and our enthusiasm and impatience leads to overuse injuries. Fencing in particular, places weight on muscles that are often weak among average desk sitters (which means most of us) like hamstrings, hip extensors, glutes, and calves. These really need weight bearing exercises-lunges, squats, leg presses-yet-moderation is still the key.

3.) So-an idea would be to consider an all around, complete fitness program, with a competent trainer if you can afford it; a visit to a podiatrist to avoid plantar fascitis, achilles tendonitis, strained ligaments, etc. A good podiatrist can explain to you how your feet and gait can cause knee, hip and other problems. There is already a thread elsewhere on another obvious topic-good shoes (orthotics may be a helpful option). You are in St. Louis and Barnes-Jewish is a great place to find top medical advice.

Hope this helps.

Best,

Aisha

[Aziz]

Thank you all very much, I was very afraid that the conscious would be that it needed surgery (not possible right now). I am a student and adjunct faculty at a few of the colleges around here so I have no insurance so aside from a checkup visiting a doctor is a bit difficult (but the way it looks here in Missouri I better get there soon or that will not even be available soon).

I do have incredibly flat feet (concave in fact). And to say that I am out of shape, over weight and lack flexibility (physically) is probably a bit of an understatement.


It is strange - the older you get fear does not stem so much pain but the cost of repairing the injury.

again, thanks so much,

Aziz

[kalivor]

First and foremost: Most of us are not doctors. Even if we were, we aren't actually able to assess the knee ourselves: Go see a doctor.

That said, fencing is very assymetrical. Not only does it work different muscles on different sides of the body, each individual leg is actually worked assymetrically: The outside of the upper leg is strengthened much more than the inside of it.

If you're a little overweight and out of shape, then do several months of fencing, your kneecap might be pulled by this assymetry (particularly if you have bad footwork habits that exacberate it). It's a bit rare, but I have seen it a few times.

If this is the case, exercises to strengthen the inside of the leg are what's needed. Running stairs works, but is a little bit high-impact for injured knees. Joining a gym and using the machines that target this area is probably a safer way to strengthen it.

Of course, much better is to get a doctor's diagnoses, go to a physio- (or athletic-) therapist and have them give you specific exercises and stretches that will help alleviate the problem.

Note: I mostly posted this because I felt there was too little emphasis on actually seeing a doctor, and nobody mentioned strengthening this area (adductors or abductors -- I can never remember), which could be the cause of it. If you're too poor a student to see a doctor, are overweight, out of shape, and have flat feet.

#1. Orthotics.
#2. Slow down. More important to get the footwork right than fast. Don't overexert yourself. If the knee starts to hurt, stop what you're doing -- pushing through pain is generally a bad thing.
#3. Get into shape. Most important things are losing a bit of that weight (easier on the knees) and making sure that your leg strength develops symmetrically. The muscles around the knee are there to keep it in place, but if one is overdeveloped and another underdeveloped, they can pull it out of place a bit. Fencing footwork is all about pushing the legs apart, so concentrate a bit more on things that pull the legs together -- again, running stairs is good for this, as you get the right muscles targetted and the cardio all in one. Not to mention that all you need is a pair of shoes. (And shorts/pants -- don't go out naked!) Downside is that it's high-impact, so you might want to do other things until the knee pain subsides a bit.