More Points=More Interesting?

[FencingWench]

My fiance randomly started a conversation about fencing with me the other night. At first, this thrilled me, since he seems to have little interest in the sport I hold so dear. But rather than beg me to take him to the nearest salle, he explained some of the reasons he finds fencing boring to watch.

Most were complaints that were familiar to any fencer who has had a conversation about the "spectator friendliness" of our sport. Why doesn't the first person to hit get the point? Why is target so limited in foil and sabre? Why does fencing have to be linear? Why can't you use your offhand to block? I gave the typical replies from the three main schools of thought: fencing should be as close to dueling as possible, fencing has become a modern sport separate from its origins and we should continue to let it evolve as such, and fencing should be tweeked with spectators in mind.

My main point: While talking about making fencing more exciting, my fiance suggested making different targets worth different point values. He said this would allow underdogs to have a chance at evening the score in a dramatic fashion. For instance, it's generally no fun to watch an epee bout if the score is 14-10, and the fencer with 14 points has been ahead the entire time. But what if one toe touch, worth 5 points, by the underdog could make for the win?

I've heard a lot of suggestions for making fencing more interesting to spectators, but this was the first time I had heard of changing the point system rather than the scoring system. What do you all think?

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I think it has merit, but would require too much change in the sport. Too much argueing about whether or not the damned thing hit the foot or not. Plus, it could make fencing more expensive with toe lames.

[mackillian]

My husband of three weeks starts his first fencing class next Thursday.

[SmokeyTheCat263]

Sounds like a terrible idea. It would completely change strategy. Epeeists would be attacking to wherever they can afford to take the risk, as opposed to whatever is open/appropriate in the fencing action.

[cowpaste]

Do the fiancés complain about ya'lls uneven thighs?

[mackillian]

Mine are even. o_O

[Mo]

Originally Posted by cowpaste

Do the fiancés complain about ya'lls uneven thighs?

Why would this ever be an issue??
Are you physically perfect?
Is an uneven thigh a flaw?

[Hurriranger]

My front thigh is much harder when tensed but the size is the same.

and as to MO, dont get too offended, he's just a little boy, he knows he did bad, he's sorry.

[Zilverzmurfen]

Just a couple of thoughts that crossed my mind when reading your post...

Originally Posted by FencingWench

Why doesn't the first person to hit get the point?

Did you forget to tell him about épée?

Originally Posted by FencingWench

Why is target so limited in foil and sabre?

As far as foil is concerned it's probably because it was invented as a training weapon. I imagine that the limit of valid target area was applied so that the fencers at the time would concentrate their skills on hitting that specific (mortal) area of the human body. Just a thought.

Originally Posted by FencingWench

Why can't you use your offhand to block?

Take him fencing and let him block your hits with his 'offhand'. When being hit by a metal rod on his bare hand I am fairly sure he will regret his suggestion.

You could also ask him what the 'Offside' rule is all about in football ('soccer' to the US people)? That too is a rule of the game, whether it seems silly or not... (Which it does.)

Originally Posted by FencingWench

I've heard a lot of suggestions for making fencing more interesting to spectators

I dream of the day when they will change the rules of tennis, golf, ice-hockey etc etc etc to try to make it more "spectator friendly"... *yawn*

Honest, I don't see the problem? These are the rules of our sport! The issue, in my opinion, is rather that fencing does not get as much attention in the media as those aforementioned sports. How can you expect the average person to 'understand' a sport he/she has never even seen before?

Originally Posted by FencingWench

...this was the first time I had heard of changing the point system rather than the scoring system. What do you all think?

I think it's a genuinely bad idea!

[Alain]

I think that, although the idea of different target areas having different point values has merit... it has practical limitations as well as just being plain silly, when you think about it. Someone cited tennis as an example: what a weird scoring system - love, 15, 30, 40, game/deuce - why don't they make the smash or the lob count for more, etc.? They don't change these rules because they are all part of an established tradition, and big changes to the sport would be widely unpopular with the players. Change the tradition of something and it will be all but lost; you foilists should know what I mean

Mind you, it's a pretty cool thing to do in training every now and again. I've done this before for épée: fight to 5/10/15 hits, but in order to win, you have to have hit all the different target areas - hand (before wrist), arm, main body (incl. mask), leg, and foot. It can be quite good fun, especially if both people only have one difficult target area left to hit!

[Have At You]

Hmmm, extra points based on mortality like 10 points for a head shot, 7 points for an upper torso shot, 3 points for an arm or leg, and 2 points for a toe? Of course, no points for sabre unless the light scratch came from a poisoned blade

Or extra points based on difficulty or distance to target, like 10 points for the back, 7 points for a toe, 5 points for a head or torso, 3 points for an arm or leg, 2 points for a wrist? Of course, that would require some honesty from fencers as to where they got hit, and what with people disputing every call anyway that would probably just delay the game even further.

Or maybe no extra points based on target, but in the event of a tie, award the tiebreaking point to the fencer with the most panache? Purely subjective, in the sole discretion of the ref, with no chance of appeal (because arguing with the ref shows no class).

This is fun. What other possibilities are there?

[Alain]

Originally Posted by Have At You

Hmmm, extra points based on mortality like 10 points for a head shot, 7 points for an upper torso shot, 3 points for an arm or leg, and 2 points for a toe? Of course, no points for sabre unless the light scratch came from a poisoned blade

Or extra points based on difficulty or distance to target, like 10 points for the back, 7 points for a toe, 5 points for a head or torso, 3 points for an arm or leg, 2 points for a wrist? Of course, that would require some honesty from fencers as to where they got hit, and what with people disputing every call anyway that would probably just delay the game even further.

Or maybe no extra points based on target, but in the event of a tie, award the tiebreaking point to the fencer with the most panache? Purely subjective, in the sole discretion of the ref, with no chance of appeal (because arguing with the ref shows no class).

This is fun. What other possibilities are there?

Ooooooooooooooooooooh, I know, I know! Everytime there's a simultaneous attack in foil/sabre, why not award the point to the person who hit with the most style? You'd need the ref, obviously, and then say three judges in the background who hold up cards after every hit - 5.9, 5.9...

And, in the event of a tie on points for artistic impression, the fencers should decide who gets the hit by doing Paper-Scissors-Stone.

[telkanuru]

A practical issue: this would involve more refs, more subjectivity, and more annoyance.

[ThatReallyHurt]

Originally Posted by Mo

Why would this ever be an issue??
Are you physically perfect?
Is an uneven thigh a flaw?

I don't think it's a flaw... but I do find myself walking in circles a lot more nowadays...

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

A practical issue: this would involve more refs, more subjectivity, and more annoyance.

Yes, it would be nearly impossible to do electrically. (Who wants a 5-pronged body cord and 3 lamés?)

And with dry fencing, we already have enough problems with on or off target.

[DieterS]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Yes, it would be nearly impossible to do electrically. (Who wants a 5-pronged body cord and 3 lamés?)

Actually, an interesting idea was proposed by a coach in Switzerland some years ago that would combine elements of foil and epee. Imagine wiring an epee with a foil point, and imagine both competitors wearing lame's. An "off-target" hit is worth 1 point and an "on-target hit is worth 2 points. No right-of way.

This arrangement could lead to some interesting strategies. For example, a simultaneous touch could result in 2 points for one competitor and 1 point for the other. From an epee perspective, this may actually discourage the counterattack to the arm and encourage parrying.

Personally, I think it would be more exciting and spectator friendly, especially when combined with brightly colored uniforms (as is done in nearly all other sports).

You could try it out using foils to see what you think! Anybody want to try this out in a club competition and post the results here?

Dieter

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Dieter Schlaepfer
Eigertek

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Do it in foil and sabre, leave epee alone!

[Alain]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Do it in foil and sabre, leave epee alone!

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Epee_Pox]

Originally Posted by DieterS

Actually, an interesting idea was proposed by a coach in Switzerland some years ago that would combine elements of foil and epee. Imagine wiring an epee with a foil point, and imagine both competitors wearing lame's. An "off-target" hit is worth 1 point and an "on-target hit is worth 2 points. No right-of way.

This arrangement could lead to some interesting strategies. For example, a simultaneous touch could result in 2 points for one competitor and 1 point for the other. From an epee perspective, this may actually discourage the counterattack to the arm and encourage parrying.

Personally, I think it would be more exciting and spectator friendly, especially when combined with brightly colored uniforms (as is done in nearly all other sports).

You could try it out using foils to see what you think! Anybody want to try this out in a club competition and post the results here?

Dieter

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Dieter Schlaepfer
Eigertek

I think that's not such a bad idea!

[LUDICROUS]

Noooooo..... Keep foil the way it is! Coloured uniforms maybe, but I do like the traditional aspect of fencing.