Attacking at Weird Angles

[Grasshopper]

By attacking at bizarre angles, you can force your opponent to move outside of his comfort zone in defending. Sometimes his/her parry will get bigger, which opens up other zones, or with the new timings, allows you to make a quick remise and lock out the box.

Any thoughts?

[KShan5[PrFC]]

yes.

Attacking at weird angles also makes your attack a lot slower. You aren't attacking in a straight line, thus making your attack come slower, and fall shorter.

And although their parry may be bigger, your attack is also going to be bigger. Which seems like grounds for some tight preperation calls.

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by KShan5[PrFC]

yes.

Attacking at weird angles also makes your attack a lot slower. You aren't attacking in a straight line, thus making your attack come slower, and fall shorter.

And although their parry may be bigger, your attack is also going to be bigger. Which seems like grounds for some tight preperation calls.

Sorry, should have made this a foil only post...

[Epeecurean]

Yes, I think you are right, it may encourage them to do wider parries because the threat is outside their defensive zone. It also might increase the chances they do straight lateral parries rather than circular parries. See what David Littell writes about feint attacks in his piece "Lessons with Victor":

"Another interesting idea is to place the point not at the target, but wide of the target. This ensures that the opponent attempts to parry with a straight parry and does not have the choice to execute circle parries, making it easier to avoid the parry."

I usually think of angulation as a finishing position in close quarter fighting but I can see it as part of a feint attacks as well.

[Alain]

You're right, I think that attacking from weird angles can definately be an advantage. As a general idea, not just specific to one weapon, I would say that using an attack in a different line - one that your opponent's not comfortable with, as you suggest - could be effective. You could always use this attack as a preparation and then, once you know your opponent's response, you could follow it through.

I actually fenced foil last night (shocking, I know). I found that after engaging/pressuring his blade in quarte, if I came off and did a feint to his quarte side, he would automatically go for a parry of prime - so i'd hit back on the other side

Anyway, I hope this helps

[counter riposte]

It always seems to amaze me. Fencing is a sport that has been around for hundreds of years, one that has been studied, taken apart and put back together again, with tactics and strategies which have been tried, tested, proved and disproved. Yet, there's always the one fencer that says, "Well, what if I tried.... THIS?"

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

Sorry, should have made this a foil only post...

No, I think there are definitely times in sabre. Obviously, because of the dangers presented by KShan, it's not something that could or should be used all the time, and unlike foil, because it's generally easier to hit on target (without being parried), it's a little less useful, but from time to time, it's certainly not without a potential benefit.

[wflaschka]

Vanni has an interesting move which he brings out every now and then. I think it's been talked about in other threads.

It comes at the end of a normal march, when the tip is high. The defender is expecting a flicky finish and has a high block going, or has generally been teased into raising his hand. Then Vanni, with his hand starting above his head, does a downward stroke that hits the high high-line with the tip. The defender, expecting an arc that will intersect with his block, suddenly has to deal with a tip-attack, where he must move his blade to parry. But too late! The tip gets through.

This one is hard for me to reproduce in my own fencing -- because (I think) it's a "feeling" move, and it would seem to take some time before it becomes natural. But when I had the distance and tempo right, it was very useful and satisfying. My students have gotten pretty good at handling my flicks, and so this odd angulation was surprising and effective. The hit is pretty hard, especially with a stiff blade, and if you nail the collar bone people will get mad at you.

I first noticed the move in Vanni/Joppich 2003 World Champ final bout. For some reason, tho, I tend to think of it as Sanzo's move. You can see a sample of it in the first clip on the 2003 World Champ Foil page on fencingfootage. It's the one that scores the touch.

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by prototoast

No, I think there are definitely times in sabre. Obviously, because of the dangers presented by KShan, it's not something that could or should be used all the time, and unlike foil, because it's generally easier to hit on target (without being parried), it's a little less useful, but from time to time, it's certainly not without a potential benefit.

I have a teammate who likes to cut to chest from way out in right field--he's a pretty tall guy, and gets a lot of angle on the blade--it is very difficult to parry with a traditional quarte.

MR

[oso97]

When I'm teaching the idea of a composed (compound) attack I drill my students in the following mantra.

#1. The opening fient must be to an already open target
#2. The opening fient should be to the line that will draw the largest response.
#3. When they go to parry your fient, hit them in the line that they are opening.

So, yea, I'd say that presenting an attack that they have to respect but is coming in from an odd angle fits nicely with the idea of a fient to a line that will draw the largest response.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by wflaschka

Vanni has an interesting move which he brings out every now and then. I think it's been talked about in other threads.

It comes at the end of a normal march, when the tip is high. The defender is expecting a flicky finish and has a high block going, or has generally been teased into raising his hand. Then Vanni, with his hand starting above his head, does a downward stroke that hits the high high-line with the tip. The defender, expecting an arc that will intersect with his block, suddenly has to deal with a tip-attack, where he must move his blade to parry. But too late! The tip gets through.

interestingly enough, i stole this move from vanni and use it effectively even though i can't flick to save my life. you'd think that for the "feint of flick" to work, you'd have to actually prove that you can flick effectively and effortlessly but not really. i think this move has worked for me because people take it for granted that you know how to flick.

i also watched him use this move in the olympics but the chinese were AIP so i think thats a solution. i don't think this move ever has right of way until the tip is on its descent since it's always pointing upward.

[Tiwaz]

Originally Posted by Epeecurean

Yes, I think you are right, it may encourage them to do wider parries because the threat is outside their defensive zone. It also might increase the chances they do straight lateral parries rather than circular parries. See what David Littell writes about feint attacks in his piece "Lessons with Victor":

"Another interesting idea is to place the point not at the target, but wide of the target. This ensures that the opponent attempts to parry with a straight parry and does not have the choice to execute circle parries, making it easier to avoid the parry."

I usually think of angulation as a finishing position in close quarter fighting but I can see it as part of a feint attacks as well.

try angulation as a prep with me and i'll have a nice last minute parry reposte waiting for you