Delicate Situation

[Wafath]

I am faced with a little bit of a delicate situation, and I would like advice on to how handle this.

I am a coach at a university fencing club. We are by no means a serious club, but we routinely produce a few fencers a year who compete in local competitions. Some of our fencers achieve E and D ranks, but we are not producing national champions.

This semester the university offered an 8 week, 16 2 hour session fencing class. One of my sabre students who had been fencing for a semester took the class. I told him that I would be surprised if the instructor was better than him, but he needed a credit and wanted to improve his foil game.

I was unprepared for the horror stories I have heard from the class. In short, the instructor appears to have learned fencing from a book without ever trying it herself. The en-guard position is wrong (she has people holding foils like sabres). The parries are sort of Italian style, but the way she explained the parries they are unworkable. There are other problems, but the most telling is that halfway through the class the instructor has yet to put on a jacket and mask and work directly with the students.

The worst part of this is that most of the students are going to be high school and middle school gym teachers.

Through my student I invited the instructor to come by the club to “practice”. She, of course, has never shown up.

I figured that I would simply have cringe and bear the situation. Maybe after the class I could approach the head of the department and offer my services for future classes. I have not figured out how to best handle it though.

However I found out something recently that may make me obligated to take immediate action. My student informed me that the masks they are using have snap on bibs. He did not notice this because he had his own gear.

All of the gear the class is using comes from Santelli, but I have no idea how old it is. I was under the impression that snap on bibs were banned in the early 80’s. Could someone please tell me when they were banned? Also many of the foils have been mistreated, and have funny bends in them. The instructor does not know how to do very simple foil maintenance (such as tightening up a loose pommel).

So I find myself in a situation where I may be obligated to take action, if only for the safety of the class, but I full well know that if I interfere I will be stepping on peoples toes and I could easily end up doing worse than nothing.

Please give me any advice you may have for dealing with this situation.

Wayne McCullough

[damianip]

I would make discreet inquiries into the instructor's credentials. (USFCA, AAI, or the like)

Do you have any yourself? It isn't essential, but it certainly would carry weight with any bureaucratic organization to have some sort of credentials, especially if you have to offer an opinion of someone's abilities.

Maybe you should show up at a class to observe the situation. It could be that this person was "thrown to the lions" and may welcome some knowledgable help.

It may not be as bad as you think and may indeed turn into an opportunity for you.

Regarding masks:

I think that Santelli only recently stopped selling riveted or snap in bibs on their cheaper masks. Just because they have been banned from use in USFA comps doesn't mean they can't be bought or used for practice (I wouldn't recommend it though).

We have a few beginners show up with them after they made the decision to buy their own equipment only to have us tell them the bad news. However, last I looked at the Santelli web site, I only saw sewn in bibs.

As far as loose pommels go, I'm the armorer at my club (I'm a fool), and every week I go through the beginner weapons, tightening pommels and straightening blades, as well as making more major repairs. What amazes me is how much beginners can abuse a weapon. If you wait long enough, they probably won't have any weapons with which to fence. Problem solved!! ;~)

Paolo

[Bugaboo]

You probably need to say something. And the university would appreciate it, too, I think -- if there's a serious accident that could have been avoided, the school may face a nasty lawsuit. And your initial letter (put it in writing) becomes evidence that they were warned.

Express it as a matter of concern for the students, the university's good reputation, and for the children those students will teach some day. List your concerns politely, but strongly. (Like writing an editorial or thesis: Avoid wimpy "I think" and "I feel" statements. Make strong assertions.) Back it up with your experience. And offer to meet with the dean with a couple of other experienced fencers who can help clarify the situation even more. And if you can, offer some sort of solution.

You gotta do what you feel you gotta do.

I agree that you should go and take a look at things first. If the person is unwilling to accept help from you then perhaps you could ask a fellow coach who is not directly involved with the school to observe the class as well and send a letter about it to the department head. That way you are not directly involved. Then if they ask this coach who would be a good replacement he can suggest you But you definitely have to do something, the longer it goes on this way, the more they will have to unlearn. Also with shoddy equipment and a lack of maitenance, someone could get seriously hurt. Good luck.

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"The sword isn't our lives, it just keeps us alive for the really good parts" - Graham Ashe

[vegan]

Wayne,
Having previous knowlage of this situation-
and hearing you and aaron talk about the snap on bibs at divs yesterday here is my suggestions:
Email her and cc me, the head of the department, aaron (he's going to have to be involved at this point). point out that the masks are unsafe ans suggest some sort of soulution- like offing the club masks instead.
Also offer my coaching and Jacks- I'm not sure if jack has any offical endorsments but . . . hes good, as are you. However the Univeristy may want to have offical labels (I have Usfa cert, as you know, and in this situation it may prove useful).
If she seems willing to discuss this, lets first prove the masks are unsafe (one 12k punch ought to do it- us smolenski's method- if he dosen't like it- it fails!), then talk abou the technique- perhaps offer to do one seminar on the 2nd to last day for a second point of view??
Ben.
ps. What did jill say, if you discussed this with her?
pps. try talking to larry or vitali and see what they say??
final ps. nice job this weekend fencing us non sabreists- ye kick'd our buttocks!!!

[Wafath]

damianip: I know what her credentials are. She has taught fencing in a middle school for a few years.

In essence this is what my credentials are, I have taught it before. The difference is that a) I am an active competitor in the sport, and b) my early instruction was supervised by experienced coaches.

In reality I am not an experienced coach. Until recently I led group lessons designed to bring fencers up to the level where they can safely fence and understand why they loose, and then encourage the fencers to seek instruction from other coaches in the club. (who prefered to work one-on-one.) Only in the past year have I been working with students to improve their game past the most basic level. (and yes, I do plan on going to coaches college this summer.)

But I do have another coach with the titles to back me up. (he posted here as "vegan")

I did not know santelli was selling snap on masks well past the time that they were banned from competition. This may complicate issues as the masks may be only a year or two old and yet completely worthless.

Armoring in my club tends to be a communal activity. Fencers learn the basics because we make them do the basics. IMHO, this is part of basic fencing instruction. (but then if I don't teach them then I have to do it all myself, and I don't want to do that.)

Looking in on the class is impractical for lengthy beurracratic reasons.

The coach has rejected opinions and offers of assistance from my student, brushing him off with a "That isn't the way we are doing it here." With a reception like that I fear my presence would be treated with hostility.

W

[fencing fish]

wow, first and foremost I wish you the best of luck. Being involved with several different sports I have seen politics from every which direction. And boy can they ever get nasty. I have found that often problems arise from a misunderstanding in the job discription. How much responsibility does this coach think she has/ how much does the school think she has.....ie who is really responsibility for the mask issue. Sometimes the coach will take on a responsibility not necessarily "in her court" then when a problem/complication arises he/she will back away from being able to/wanting to find a solution after all they are just doing the job they are paid to do. On the other side the school may have gotten so used to the coach taking on jobs that by the book are not really theirs that they forget to be more involved in that area. This is just an idea of what may be the problem, and from what I see a very common problem in any sport in any club....especially when dealing with several (and not necessarily linked) levels and layers of tape.


I apologize for this conglomeration of thoughts, rather messy but hopefully helpful for those who can make sense of it.

[Lumberg]

First off, what are you more concerned with? It sounds like you are concerned that she is not teaching fencing properly and using the fact that the equipment is not safe as a reason to make a change.
Here's the deal. You would be stepping into a situation that is none of your business Your student though can bring the issue up (that's she's not doing a good job teaching fencing) with the physical education department (since it's a gym class) because he has fencing experience.
I think she was intimidated when your student invited her to your club because she knows she's not good at fencing since she's going to a book to teach it, so I wouldn't be surprised that she hasn't shown up.

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Lumberg.
"...ahhh, we have sort of a problem here... yeah, you apparently didn't put one of the new cover sheets on your TPS report"

[Bugaboo]

Alternately, you could repeatedly slash her tires (with a saber, if possible). Over time, she'll get tired of it and move.

[schwarta]

Wayne (and everyone else)

This is your saber student. The safety is the most important issue. Fencing should be safe but bad weapons with bad masks is and accident waiting to happen.

I have warned the instructor that the masks are not safe. Her response was: "Well that will have to wait until next semester." I told her they need new masks now and told her the name of Triplette as a re liable low cost company to get masks from.

Since she does not want to address the issue, I will go to the head of the department TOMORROW. I will also email the head of the department right now.

As for the bad instruction: let us face the facts. It is offensive to us because we charish fencing, but she really has not taught anything that is dangerous. It is only the equipment that is dangerous.

At club tomorrow night I will tell you the latest on the bad news. The email will be cc to Veagan and you.

[damianip]

If your students are being brushed off during the class, then they should bring it up with the department director. You can be suggested as an alternative source for instruction. If you have a person with credentials to vouch for your abilities, so much the better.

Your students do have the option of dropping the class and then explaining why to the department.

Do what you can but don't jeopardize your position as club coach. Let the students vote with their feet if the situation is that sticky. You can't be the guardian of proper fencing.

Paolo

[Lumberg]

schwarta,
Well, I think you need to hear an outside opinion. Although you deem the masks to be dangerous, she may not have the clout to order the physical education department to buy an entire set of masks. I'm not saying it's okay to have masks that are not safe.
I think the response from the department head might be similar to "we do not have that expense budgeted; for the remainder of the semester, the equipment that the class has available will be used."
I suggest Wayne to keep out of this situation entirely. schwarta has spoken what Wayne was thinking. It all looks bad from an outside point of view both on her part and schwarta's.

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Lumberg.
"...ahhh, we have sort of a problem here... yeah, you apparently didn't put one of the new cover sheets on your TPS report"

[This message has been edited by Lumberg (edited 02-26-2001).]

[arcon]

[ 10-19-2001: Message edited by: arcon ]

[schwarta]

Good news: The class is only half a semester. It will conclude March 14.

Bad news: there are still 5 more classes.

I think the best course of action is to wait until after Spring break (when my grade is recorded) and then write a letter to the department chair.

There is no need to suffer academically for others incompetence. The letter should come from me and should carefully list the problems including instruction.

...And for those who think I should challenge her... It is more than halfway through the class and she has yet to put on jacket, mask and glove and actually fence.

(P.S. And for the record, I feel that it is one of the many responisbilities of an instructor to make sure the equipment is safe and up with current regulations. I also feel that maybe instructors should have browsed the latest USFA rule book...)

[Lumberg]

schwarta,
Have you ever been to any other fencing clubs? When it comes to beginners, clubs use old masks that couldn't pass a 12K punch test, practice half-jackets, and weapons with double bends. No one is given a glove or knickers that are 10cm above the bottom hem of the jacket.
You've already approached your instructor aggresively by "demanding" that new masks be purchased. You can count on a crappy grade so it doesn't matter when you submit your letter to the department head.
As for weapon safety, it was obvious to you that your instructor doesn't have a clue about how to maintain weapons so if you really cared about your classmates' safety, you would have volunteered to maintain the weapons.
I'm not saying that safety is not important or bad fencing instruction is okay. Your attitude on how you approached a delicate situation was not effective.

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Lumberg.
"...ahhh, we have sort of a problem here... yeah, you apparently didn't put one of the new cover sheets on your TPS report"

[Wafath]

Lumberg: I haven't seen that level of equipment used in clubs, but my experience is somewhat limited.

Also I am concerned with both, and my concerns were expressed in chronological order.

Bad masks do not garuntee an injury (unlike no masks, but that is a different issue), they increase the chance. Bad instruction will definately produce bad fencers.

I am working on composing a letter that says, in short, you may have a promblem with equipment, and we might be able to help. The letter will only touch on equipment issues and will ignore teaching issues. If the instructor ignores the letter we can try going over her head in a month or so.

W

[oiuyt]

One note to interject here.... apparently the only offered solution to the masks was going out and buying a new set of masks. I don't know how large the class is, but that could EASILY be fairly expensive, and WAY more than the school is willing to spend, especially if the current masks are a relatively new purchase. Another (perfectly safe) alternative is to spend some time w/needle and dental floss... suddenly the problem is solved, the bibs are secured by a robust thread and are fully competition legal as well as safe. It's obviously better that the class continue in a safe manner with these fixed masks than it get cancelled because someone is unnecesarily demanding a large capital expenditure that the school may not be willing to make.

As to the rest... well, that gets to be a sticky situation. I'd suggest that either you or the student in question (schwarta) should propose this solution and convince the instructor that it really IS in her best interest to fix the masks.

-B

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"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"

[Wafath]

Well let me ask a few questions:

1) when were removeable bibs banned from competition?
2) how recently has santelli been selling these masks?
3) when the removeable bibs were banned, what were the acceptable remedies? (asside from purchasing a new mask)

(nothing personal oiuyt, but I would like to hear it from more than one source. If I suggest it and I am wrong, well, I am in a load of trouble.)

W

[Lumberg]

This is an interesting situation. Wafath started by asking how to handle a delicate situation and schwarta just handled it in a non-delicate manner.
The class is going to be over in a couple weeks and you inalienated the fencing instructor. You plan on going to the department head with relatively no clout to request something that you are not involved in.

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Lumberg.
"...ahhh, we have sort of a problem here... yeah, you apparently didn't put one of the new cover sheets on your TPS report"

[neevel]

1. I believe the same time that the mesh standard went to "12 kg" (i.e., after Smirnov's death in '82).

2. They're still listed in Santelli's current catalog ( www.santelli.com ).

3. Like oyuit said, take a needle and strong thread and securely sew in the bibs, making sure you don't leave any gaps for a blade to sneak under. Note that without insulated mesh they're still technically not allowable in competition.

My take on the issue with the bibs is that, while I'd never buy or recommend that anyone buy those masks, if they're what you've got and the mesh is in decent shape then that'd be acceptable within the confines of a beginners' class. A polite, friendly suggestion that some replacement foil blades be purchased (making note of the fact that blades do normally wear out with use and eventually break) would probably be in order.

-Dave