New Foil Timings and Your Observations

[flyingfencer]

I'm looking for some more clear, concise, and specific observations about the new foil timings.

I'm not looking for generic opinions about whether it sucks or it's great.

These are some specific questions I have for foil fencers using the timings. The most important observations I'm looking for are your experiences using the new timings with fencers with whom you are very familiar.

1. Are you're a rated or unrated fencer and what's your rating?
2. Left or Right Handed?
3. How long have you been fencing?
4. Do you fence in tournaments, local, regional, national, international?
5. How long have you been fencing with the new timings?
6. What kind of fencer are you? Have you used the flick alot in your repertoire? Have you remised alot or have you used a parry riposte more? Do you land your touch with a hard or soft touch? Is it more glancing or placing of the touch.
7. When fencing a familiar opponent, what are your specific experiences with touches not scoring under the new timings, ie... flick to back doesn't score, direct attack to the chest with a glancing blow does not score, riposte does not score because a remise gains priority with the new timings, etc...? Other experiences outside of these examples?

[keith]

A sensible idea for a thread!

1 unrated
2 right
3 17 years
4 local, formerly national.
5 3 months
6 did do big flicks, do remise & parry - use a soft hand with fingers to fix point(or try)
7 old style flicks don't land anywhere near often enough to make them viable, soft hand flicks which place the point still score but are still quite slow actions. Direct hits not scoring have so far always traced back to badly taped tips (now a really important part of kit to take care of). Glancing blows are the biggest cause of lost hits, you can no longer count on getting a light on with a grazing hit.

[Safir]

Direct hits not scoring have so far always traced back to badly taped tips (now a really important part of kit to take care of).

Sorry not true. French top juniors estimate that they have (with good tips) between
3 to 5 perfectly executed direct hit which doesn't score per match for each
opponent.
This is quite a lot when the match is difficult.

[CvilleFencer]

Okay, I will play a bit with this one, as I am interested to see some type of correlation to style/success.

1. A lowly lowly E in foil, although I was a D for like 8 minutes one...
2. Right-handed
3. 2 1/2 - 3 years. Primarily and epeeist.
4. Before I gave up foil in disgust of the new timings local/sectional.
5. Around six months.
6. I am a fairly aggressive foil fencer. Lots of takes/pries de fer attacks, strong parries/beats and off angle hits as closing or close distance. I used the flick a fair amount, mostly to the shoulder/back and for underhand or "thrown point" attacks around a blade to the chest, especially against lefties. Most of my hits land and then slide or bounce as I am usually moving or have a good amount of force behind them. My straight attacks are usually off of a fleche attack or very aggressive forward footwork and many of my touches to the front of the body are quasi-flicks where my index finger is pointing away from the target when my point hits, as by that time I am usually going to one side or the other to avoid the corp a corp. I was a fairly strong E when I was active, and I had expected to get my D fairly soon (probably this season) in a pretty strong division.

7. Nothing works reliably. Parry reposte is the most reliable action I have left but even that is not 100%. My last tourney was an absolute embarrassment that made my want to die. I was so frustrated with everything failing that in my last few bouts I was using little more than parry reposte and disengage attacks and even they would not work 100%. To give an idea the last tourney I fenced at before the new timings (and I was not having a very good day) I placed 41st out of 78 at a strong multi-state tourney (an A2 IIRC) and the first (and last) tourney after the new timings I was 58 out of 68 (a B2 IIRC) at a not overly strong local open tourney.

No crap about tip tape and so forth for me either. I am a pretty strong Armourer and all of my blades were in fine working condition with plenty of tape, LP GT Barrels, etc. My blades are rather flexible to facilitate my style and that may contribute to it, but a 6' 5" and 320 pounds if I go to very stiff on my blades I can do some serious damage if my timing/distance is off or the opponent does something stupid, like lunge into my fleche. It is NOT all a simple thing like tape or blade flex. The new foil timings are just plain broken.

[keith]

this is a thread for personal experiences of the timings,

I'll happily wander into another thread to argue about experiences though

[mrbiggs]

1. Are you're a rated or unrated fencer and what's your rating?
2. Left or Right Handed?
3. How long have you been fencing?
4. Do you fence in tournaments, local, regional, national, international?
5. How long have you been fencing with the new timings?
6. What kind of fencer are you? Have you used the flick alot in your repertoire? Have you remised alot or have you used a parry riposte more? Do you land your touch with a hard or soft touch? Is it more glancing or placing of the touch.
7. When fencing a familiar opponent, what are your specific experiences with touches not scoring under the new timings, ie... flick to back doesn't score, direct attack to the chest with a glancing blow does not score, riposte does not score because a remise gains priority with the new timings, etc...? Other experiences outside of these examples?

1. E04
2. Righty
3. 4 years or so
4. Local tournaments
5. Since late October. I fence with both old and new timings
6. I was never much of a flicker. I COULD do it, but I'd only use it late in a bout when my opponent wasn't expecting it. It wasn't so much a move of mine as it was something I used to make my opponent think I had more up my sleeve than I actually did. I'm a parry-riposter, and I rarely hit very hard. I used to glance my touches, but I've straightened that out since the new timings came about.
7. I haven't tried to flick, because I don't have good enough distance to land it. The only negative effects I've had is a few attacks into preparation not registering. Also, I have a nasty preme (bragging, sorry), and it only lands like 40% of the time with the new timings, as opposed to like 90% with the old timings.

[counterattack]

1. C
2. Left Handed
3. 3 years of foil (5 years of epee)
4. local & regional tourneys
5. two weeks
6. I buy the stiffest foils I can find. I flick not at all. I fence parry riposte and probably more defensively than most.
7. When fencing a familiar opponent I find that angled but hard hits to the chest certainly seem to be going off less often. Flicks to my back only go off if really nailed (as a lefty this used to be the most common target for my opponents). I enjoy this, since it removes by force something that refs were very reluctant to curtail: broken wrist, multi-arm-pumping attacks that somehow were never in prep. But there certainly were some hits, for both fencers, where we were both very surprised nothing went off. I do think something should be done to help the "pretty damng solid but not dead on" hits that no longer go off. Even some (but many fewer) that seemed "plain dead on".

[Schiavona]

My expirences with the new timings are not as a fencer, but as a referee. At our JO quals (not a strong field) I was surprised many times as the 'flow' of the action (who I thought was scoring) was different than who actually got the light. At first I thought that the remises were locking out the riposte or attack that had ROW, now I think that the hard, fast hits (most were straight!) were just not going off. The remise being somewhat softer and slower (in relation to the riposte/attack) were causing the box to read the hit.

[ThatReallyHurt]

1. Unrated (heh)
2. Right Handed.
3. Four and a half Months (I hope I don't throw your numbers off)
4. I hope to fence in a tournament for the first time in February. Maybe two, if I'm lucky and can get ahold of a pair of pants.
5. I have no idea. My club bought a new box a little while back, apparently it has the new timings. It looks like I've only fenced the new timings...
6. I'm a new (poor, but improving slowly) fencer. I've never flicked, as I have no idea how. I still use a French grip. I'm a big fan of parrying, but I tend to forget to riposte. My coach tells me I do remise quite a bit (still trying to figure out if that's a good thing or not). I try to land my hits just hard enough to bend the blade a bit - I don't have very long arms, so I try to keep back as much as possible. When I do get a hit, it's usually a straight on hit, not a glance or rub.
7. I have no experience with the old timings, but I have yet to actually make a direct hit that didn't score, likewise, I don't think I've ever been hit directly and not been scored against.

[Alan]

What about creating a blog where any fencer (or non fencer) against
the new timings would send

- some lines in English or French about why he is against.

- his name, country, palmares and if he wants a photocopy (scan) of his
fencing license


- the moderator would remove all racist ...etc stuff and all messages for
the new timings

- then send the pointer to Mr Roch and to the main newspapers around the
world


If they are enough top foilists and top foil experts around the world
participating it may well influence who you know.

[MikeHarm]

D03 in foil. This is I think my 7th or eight year, I've fenced in different states and at summer nationals. I'm right handed.

Game wise I like to draw attacks for a parry riposte and try to push the opponent back and if they won't reach I launch an attack they aren't willing to retreat.

I've been fencing a couple months with the new timings. I don't like flicks have tended to remise and I would say I have both hard and soft attacks.

My ripostes are going off at the same or higher rate as they were before the timing, there is zero concern that I won't be able to successfully riposte on any action. The direct attacks are also scoring at the same rate as before for me. Infighting I initially was having barely any of the touches going off when I was doing the attacks straight up or down, when I switched to a wider outside angle for my infighting attack I went back to normal scoring.

The back flicks or very fast glancing blows are the ones that I see consistantly not setting the point off and some of the hard ones that have a bad angle (too low or too high) that roll the tip up too fast.

For the attack I'm placing the touch and not trying to glance at all which I view as a bad habit I'm trying not to do.

I've also experimented with the chest plate directly under the lame, and found that a hard or glancing blow does do the point bounce, but if I do a light point set on my actions I have a higher probability of scoring than if they aren't wearing the plate.

[oldguy31]

B canada
10+ years experience
right handed
fenced one national level tournament with new timings
have new timings at club
still land flicks to front and shoulders
Direct strong ripostes (big blade bend on chest) often do not register, even when tape is good
strong simultaneous attacks often give no lights at all

I do not agree with thse who suggest that we should "adapt" by hitting softer: in other words i have to slow down the speed of my action to accomodate the silly box? If the intent of the changes were to preserve foil as a thrusting weapon, they have clearly failed.

[Safir]

In France an experiment was done at the CREPS where the top junior
train :

Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Hier à l'entraînement 2appareils on été branché sur la même piste un réglé aux nouvelles normes et un aux "vieille" normes.Avec le nouvelle appareil 5/0
Avec l'ancien appareil le tireur gagne aussi mais 5/4
alors sa change rien???"

ie

"Yesterday when training who used 2 sets of machines on the same match
one with the old one with the new

With the old timing one fencer wins 5/0 and with the new he wins
also but 5/4"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


"J ai été l un des cobayes de cette expérience et ce n est pas tellement la différence de score qui dérange mais plutôt les nombreuses abérrations que cet appareil commet...
Les coups lancés allument toujours 1 fois sur 5, on ne comprend pas trop... par contre un bon coup droit de 3 tonnes n allume pas toujours donc le tireur s arrete persuadé d avoir touché et il prend un remise..
cet appareil n est a mon avis pas DU TOUT au point!"


ie

I have been fighting during this test. It is not so much the score which is the problem but the numerous aberrations of this (new ) machine

Good flicks still light 1 time over 5, we don't really understand
But a good direct hit of 3 tons doesn't always count and the fencer
stops thinking he has touched and he gets a "remise"
In my opinion this machine does not work at all !
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

[flyingfencer]

I guess I should answer my own questionaire.

1. Unrated
2. Right-Handed
3. I fenced from 1985 to 1992. Stopped fencing until 2004. I started fencing again last January.
4. Local Tournaments
5. I've fenced with the new timings for the last three months, but I alternate between machines with old and new timings.
6. Since I stopped fencing in 1992 and just started again last year, I've had little experience with flicking. At the beginning of last year, my coach was teaching me some flicking technique, which was interesting. My fencing is still kind of a time capsule of general fencing from 1992 even though I've been back for about a year. In general I have a light hand with a soft touch, where I'm placing the point. I very, very rarely make a glancing hit. Defensively, I score frequently with parry four/riposte, parry six/riposte, or counter six parry/riposte, infrequently remise, and I have a long and quick lunge where I sometimes get stretched out to far and hung out to dry. I score frequently with simple attacks, direct attack, beat direct, feint disengage, double disengage, and feint coupe make up most of my reportoire. Toss in a few Fleches and that's about it.
7. I was drawn back into fencing by a friend who was an A level fencer in the 80's but no longer competes these days. He also just came back to fencing after about an eight year hiatus, and we spar and take lessons from the same coach very frequently about two to three times a week. He picked up the flicking very quickly, and he is a very fast and powerful fencer, but he does make what I would call a high number of glancing hits, driving around a parry four with a hard beat and flick, driving through a parry six with alot of blade action by beat or press or bind.
When we first fenced under the new timings, we found that alot of his attacks were no longer scoring--He actually changed foils three times. He would beat to four and snap his point in, hitting me, but no light; feint to four, coupe, and press through my six parry, hitting me, but no light; parry four/riposte, I parry four, and he flicks around the parry, hitting me, but no light. All of these attacks were what I would call glancing attacks. A kind of quick snap in and recover. On the other hand, I saw no differences with any of my normal attacks. I scored with parry/ripostes, direct attacks, fleche, coupe, and even some flicks to the shoulder. The only attacks that failed for me were flicks to the back.
Over the last couple of months, we have fenced frequently with the new machine, and he has become more familiar with it. His attacks are scoring again, but he's now placing his point and angulating more to make sure that his point lands solidly. My parrys are more successful on the new timings because he can no longer snap or flick around the parry and land a touch.
Also, he has been remising a bit more frequently and every now and then he will get a single light if I don't make a very quick riposte from my parry. I've also been able to do the same with him, but for both of us this has been infrequent. We both have fairly quick ripostes off our parrys.
We have both seen some touches that we thought were very well landed not set off the light, but these have been very rare, say 1 in 20.
Finally some equipment stuff, I was an armorer in the past and in most cases all of our equipment was functioning perfectly and our foils were taped properly.
My opinion on the timings is that I'm not sure. I was just starting to get familiar with flicking, most attacks coming with an absence of blade, and marching attacks. I wanted to play this new game more at least for me since I hadn't seen flicks before. Now, while the new timings seem to produce a game more familiar to the game I remember when I had fenced before, it doesn't seem as exciting. Also, the remise issue getting a single light while happening infrequently to me is troubling.

Well, that's it, and thank you to everyone who has participated so far.

[ThatReallyHurt]

Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Hier à l'entraînement 2appareils on été branché sur la même piste un réglé aux nouvelles normes et un aux "vieille" normes.Avec le nouvelle appareil 5/0
Avec l'ancien appareil le tireur gagne aussi mais 5/4
alors sa change rien???"

ie

"Yesterday when training who used 2 sets of machines on the same match
one with the old one with the new

With the old timing one fencer wins 5/0 and with the new he wins
also but 5/4"

I know I asked this question in another thread, but this still really perplexes me - say I take the English translation of the quote above and change it slightly, to this (italics where changed):

"Yesterday when training who used 2 parries on the same match
one with the old one with the new

With the old parry one fencer wins 5/0 and with the new he wins
also but 5/4"

I realize this is a little farfetched, but doesn't this look more like the person who made up four points in the second bout was able to adapt to the new parry, while the other fencer kept doing exactly what he was doing before?

Isn't one of the prerequisites of being a champion in any sport the ability to adapt to what your opponent may do? Shouldn't that also apply to the conditions that the sport is played in, or refereeing? A baseball team is expected to play equally well indoors and out, right? That's even a bad example - one could argue that a particular team trains outdoors and isn't used to a stadium with a roof... but the foil timings are applied equally to both competitors in fencing.

Sorry if I seem repetitive, I just really don't understand...

[Insipiens]

I am not sure your last post is relevant to Safir's. I understood Safir's example to be of two fencers using both machines at the same time (presumably by splitting the current from the spools) and saw what the score would have been on each box.

That said ability to adapt is crucial. I think Safir's post was demonstrating how different things are under the new timings (that does not demonstrate whether they are better or worse of course). The variables involved for the two fencers are many:
respective styles
respective amount of training with the new timings
respective kit.
...

[ThatReallyHurt]

I am not sure your last post is relevant to Safir's. I understood Safir's example to be of two fencers using both machines at the same time (presumably by splitting the current from the spools) and saw what the score would have been on each box.

That said ability to adapt is crucial. I think Safir's post was demonstrating how different things are under the new timings (that does not demonstrate whether they are better or worse of course). The variables involved for the two fencers are many:
respective styles
respective amount of training with the new timings
respective kit.
...

Oh... I thought he meant that they did two separate bouts, one with the old timing, one with the new...

[Insipiens]

maybe he did, I have been trying to imagine how it would work if you had attack counter-attack with both lights under the old timings and no lights under the new - would they have to carry on remising?

appareils = machine so presumably box/scoring apparatus
branchés sur la meme piste - to me impies connected to the same piste although Safir used "match".

That said I am not a French speaker so maye the bilingual Alain will comment.

[flyingfencer]

I was hoping to get a few more responses. I know that there are many threads on the new timings, but this wasn't so much a pro or con. It is for simple observations based on use.

Thanks

[Safir]

I am not sure your last post is relevant to Safir's. I understood Safir's example to be of two fencers using both machines at the same time (presumably by splitting the current from the spools) and saw what the score would have been on each box.

Yes Insipiens. It was the *** same *** match but with 2 machines (by splitting).

respective styles, training

one more offensive style (the one who won), same level of training
with the test timings.

That said ability to adapt is crucial.

I agree 100% . If only these people who couldn't adapt to modern foil
listened to you.

Instead of that they refuse to adapt (or they just can't ?) and try
to block foil evolution by willing to keep this test timings instead of the
official ones which gave us so beautiful matches in Athens.