The Foilists' Blues

[Safir]

An new article in L'Equipe about the "Challenge International de Paris" :

The Foilists' Blues :

New rules which are tried receive unanimous hostility from the fencers.

http://www.escrime-info.com/photos/lequipe.jpg

The article is in French but here is a partial translation in English
(pardon my English) :

"Disgusted. Jérôme Weibel was disgusted after having lost in the preliminary part of the World Cup Tournament. " I stop fencing, i have no more pleasure during practise or competiton"...

This disgust was general among the foilists. All are desperate since the FIE
has decided to change the rules.

The officials -of a certain age - didn't recognize anymore their foil because
foil has changed like any sport.
The show has been nevertheless extraordinary at the Olympic games of Athen
with intense fights like between Brice Guyart and the Italien Andrea Cassara
or the final between Guyart and Salavtore Sanzo.

"I don't have the impression of having seen an extravagant foil" in Athen, says
Stéphane Marcelin the person in charge of the men foilists in France
" but a sport which has changed and uses the whole length of the pist
with real exchanges. It is worth the "fentes" of Jean-Claude Magnan.

The FIE has nevertheless decided to try 2 new timing changes ... to try to eliminate flicks.

All of this could have been done by changing the rules of refereeing but there is a big problem with referees in the international fencing : there are not enough competent referees.

Instead of tackling this problem, the FIE tried to solve it by technique.
Now there is no more flicks but there is no mre foil either ...

The paray-riposts disappear in favor of counter attacks, the matches last like eternity, the fencers do not move, no more risks are taken, no more exchanges : the show becomes very bad and seems like a bad Epee match.

"A match like the semi-final of the Olympics where Guyard came back after
being leaded by 12-7 is no more possible" Marcellin says.

"They killed pleasure and the soul of foil" says Olympic Champion Brice Guyard.

"It is sad, it will change the foil by the the bottom" says Salavatore Sanzo 2nd at the Olympics.

"Foil fas become boring, not at all spectacular anymore" says Andrea Cassara bronze medalist at the Olympics and 2nd last week in Copenhagen with the new timings.

"There is no more mouvement" says the Russuian Ganeev, 4th at the Olympics.

"They criticize because they don't want to adapt" says Réné Roch, President of the FIE.

The Problem is that the ***fencers *** do the fencing , *** they make *** spectators coming to see the fights. And they don't recognize their arm anymore and don't have pleasure anymore.

"These new timings are only tried" says René Roch in conclusion. "If we see that they don't work, we will not adopt them"

We want to believe him."

From l'Equipe du samedi 22 janvier 2005

[Epeecurean]

Two interesting quotes from the article:

All of this could have been done by changing the rules of refereeing but there is a big problem with referees in the international fencing : there are not enough competent referees.

Instead of tackling this problem, the FIE tried to solve it by technique.
Now there is no more flicks but there is no mre foil either ...

---------------------------------------------------

"These new timings are only tried" says René Roch in conclusion. "If we see that they don't work, we will not adopt them"
---------------------------------------------------

Perhaps the technical approach of the new timings will be dropped in favour of improving the refereeing, in part by introducing the video review?

[Alain]

Hey,

That's a really interesting article, actually, thanks And that's coming from an épéeist! En plus, t'as fais une bonne traduction - chapeau

Does anyone know when the trial period ends, when will they decide to keep or ditch the new timings?

[LordTofuDog-jnr]

Start of 2006 I think.

[Safir]

Hey,

That's a really interesting article, actually, thanks And that's coming from an épéeist! En plus, t'as fais une bonne traduction - chapeau

Does anyone know when the trial period ends, when will they decide to keep or ditch the new timings?

Thanks Alain,

but who is the Epeist ?

[Epeecurean]

Thanks Alain,

but who is the Epeist ?

He is (Alain).

[Alain]

Yes, I am

2006? - that's quite a long trial!

Cheerio

[Safir]

Yes, I am

2006? - that's quite a long trial!

Cheerio

sorry Alain. Nobody's perfect

[oiuyt]

This season (04-05) is the trial period. Presumably the Leipzig meeting will determine what rules we play under for 05-06. Or another "phone vote" by Roch, of course. :)

-B :)

[Inquartata]

I don't expect they will be changed even that soon. There will likely be protests that it is wrong to change the rules that close to the next Olympics, and I suspect it will be put off until after the 2008 Games at the earliest...

[Neil]

I would like to hear the opinion of some of the fencers who did well under the new timings. All the quotes so far seem to have been from fencers who thought they should have done better than they did (or coaches who thought their fencers should have done better than they did), so I'm pretty skeptical about their opinions. I know Cassara came 2nd at Copenhagen, but I don't trust the Italians.

If the fencers who did well under the new timings agree they're bad, then I'm more inclined to believe there's a real problem. I'd especially be interested in what Bissdorf thinks, given that he's been around for so long.

[akaiyuki]

I have both good and bad experiences with the new timing. I never learned how to flick, nor did I learn how to defend against a flick. Back then I would get my butt kicked by everyone who can flick but now people are flicking less, which is way cool However I hate the new block out time, I keep running into remises and just hop back extensions

[Safir]

If the fencers who did well under the new timings agree they're bad, then I'm more inclined to believe there's a real problem. I'd especially be interested in what Bissdorf thinks, given that he's been around for so long.

Well Olympic Champion Brice Guyart did well in the CIP team contest
But he said that he had to change his style from attack to defense to achieve that and he is clearly against the new timings.

I personally think that doing good or bad is not the point. I am pretty sure
that the same qualities that made Cassara, Guyart ant the others champions
under the old timings will make make win also with the new timings (if they really want to adapt).

The main problem is that it destroys the soul of foil ( attack must be
better than defense) and makes it boring for the spectators.

The other problem is the ingerence of economy in fencing. Should fencers
accept changes whose real goals are to (pretendly) make the foil more
telegenic ?

[Epeecurean]

The main problem is that it destroys the soul of foil ( attack must be better than defense) and makes it boring for the spectators.

I see the soul of foil as a balance between attack and defense and the tactically richer set of actions that springs from this inherent balance. A mono-game of marching attacks with absence of blade is very one-dimensional and uninteresting.

[Safir]

I see the soul of foil as a balance between attack and defense and the tactically richer set of actions that springs from this inherent balance. A mono-game of marching attacks with absence of blade is very one-dimensional and uninteresting.

Well i think that there was more balance between attack and defense
with the old timings than now, specially with a strict referee about the
attacking arm.

(I agree that excessive flicking was a problem but the solution found is worse)

Now the balance has inclined mostly toward defense.
(At the CIP starting at the tableau of 64, 8 matches reached the time limit this year, 0 last year !)
Le Pechoux defeated the winner of Guyart 8-4 !
What a balance !

And in fact there is no more blade game than before maybe less.

And again most spectators were complaining because the matches were
boring !

[muaddib]

[QUOTE=Safir]
The main problem is that it destroys the soul of foil ( attack must be
better than defense) and makes it boring for the spectators.
QUOTE]

Speaking as an old-timer, I believe the new timings are attempting to RESTORE the soul of foil. Foil used to be about training to use a sword, not fly-fishing. Eliminating the flicks, was a step in that direction. The idea of the new block out timing, I believe, was to have more 1 light actions to make it easier on the ref and the spectators, as well as making the fencers actually have to threaten when they make an attack or feint. If the fencers change their attacks so that they are really attacking (ie. threatening), the counter-attacks and new timings won't be a factor.

After saying that, last night I was fencing with the new timings and hit my opponent hard in the middle of the chest, with no light. Very frustrating. All the other actions were fine. So we still need a better solution.

[Alan]

The idea of the new block out timing, I believe, was to have more 1 light actions to make it easier on the ref and the spectators,

This is precisely the wrong direction. Educate the referees and the spectators
instead.
When the Olympic games were on the tv screens, i have seen nobody
(even non fencer ) complain that the rules were too complicated.

With a good speaker commenting, they appreciated the show even more
than beach volley !

[muaddib]

This is precisely the wrong direction. Educate the referees and the spectators
instead.
When the Olympic games were on the tv screens, i have seen nobody
(even non fencer ) complain that the rules were too complicated.

With a good speaker commenting, they appreciated the show even more
than beach volley !

I agree, educating the refs and fans should be possible. Especially on TV with the "super-slo-mo" cameras. But I do like the idea of making the attacker actually attack, meaning threatening target. The block-out times seem to help reduce the long "marching" attacks with absence of blade being given ROW from start to finish.

[bwoodward]

Just curious - how many people know what literary work Muaddib takes his name from? It's one of the best books ever written.

[noodle]

Just curious - how many people know what literary work Muaddib takes his name from? It's one of the best books ever written.

dune

no comment on the article, it says what everyone's been thinking for a while