The Foilists' Blues

[colombia]

I tought Attely liked the new timings.

[Alan]

I tought Attely liked the new timings.

No he is against see the thread
"Summary of oppenents to the test timings..."

[CheekyCanuck]

I'm somewhat new to fencing..., but (and correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't all modern foil fencing rules take their queues from real sword fighting. For example, right-of-way was created, because in a real sword fight if one opponent was threatening, the other could only defend or run a great risk of being stabbed.
Maybe I'm wrong, but a flick has no place in a real sword fight. I didn't think rapiers could bend like that.

I can't contribute much about the straight attacks or the boobplate problem. I'm not even sure they have changed the timings at my level of competition yet. My attacks have no problems and I've hit plenty of boobplates.

[Alan]

Maybe I'm wrong, but a flick has no place in a real sword fight. I didn't think rapiers could bend like that.

Almost nothing that takes place in modern foil has something to do with
a real sword fight.

So why remove flicks and keep pom pom girls ?

[CheekyCanuck]

Almost nothing that takes place in modern foil has something to do with
a real sword fight.

So why remove flicks and keep pom pom girls ?

OK. I don't get it. Maybe it's because I'm so new to fencing, but how could timings change foil that much?

I think in the women's events things are less...(searching for a word)... ebullient . Men tend to have more energy and be far less cautious.
I have gone the full nine minutes in a bout before and probably will again with no flicks in the bout. There are a lot of parries to be had in foil, otherwise it is just epee. A flick no matter how cool it looks is a trick that (I'm sorry ) doesn't take much skill. I have a pretty mean flick myself, but I choose not to use it.

Before someone jumps all over me, I'll state again, I don't think that I've tried the new timings yet (I'm too low level, it will probably take till next year for all machines to be updated). I would like to try the new timings, but until then I still don't see how it can affect the game so much.

Actually to get back to the beginning, the whole issue is, "should flicks be allowed." From what I've read that seems to be the whole reason for the timing changes.

If foil is an evolving sport, maybe we should allow flicks. I guess the problems with flicks are that there is little defense against them and the human eye can't see (directors) them since they're so fast.
I have been told there is a defense against flicks, but if there were, flicks would not be so affective. Perhaps that is something the FIE should spend time developing, a proper defense against a flick.

The only way to conquer something is to understand it. If such a simple and simply mastered move can affect the sport this much then maybe we should understand it better before another decision/change is made that will cause dissention amongst the participants.

But I over simplify everything.

[Alan]

The only way to conquer something is to understand it. If such a simple and simply mastered move can affect the sport this much then maybe we should understand it better before another decision/change is made that will cause dissention amongst the participants.

Flicks are not so simple to master. Haven't you noticed that the best foilists before the broken test timings are still the best foilists with the broken test timings ?

The show is just boring and ugly now and gives a too big advantage to
defense and passivity.

[CheekyCanuck]

Flicks are not so simple to master. Haven't you noticed that the best foilists before the broken test timings are still the best foilists with the broken test timings ?

The show is just boring and ugly now and gives a too big advantage to
defense and passivity.

Sorry.

I should clarify.
Though I think flicks are easy to master, I don't think fencing is.
I agree that the fencers that were the best are still the best with or without flicks.
There is a separation though. Just because a fencer flicks doesn't mean they're good. Those fencers are good because they have put in the time, trained hard and ate their wheaties.

As far as it being boring, I find it hard to believe that flicking could create so much interest in the sport.
I have one coach who likes to in-fence and he looks something like Jackie Chan on crack when he parries then manages to land a solid hit. Even though his blade moves everywhere and anywhere his opponent's attacks are, those hits are straight attacks not flicks. I can't keep from laughing when I'm fencing him. Seems interesting to me.

Perhaps the change in timing is a little more sinister. It seems as though there is a change happening to the sport (flicks) and the change in timing is trying to keep the sport more traditional or unchanged. I don't know which is good or bad, but perhaps the FIE should not stand in the way of change.
I wonder how fencers received the change when the lunge was developed?

I don't like flicking, but I'm willing to put up with it if so many people get their kicks from it. Who am I to stand in the way of someone else's fun?

[Mr Epee]

Might I suggest not arguing with Alan.

You will not win.

[CheekyCanuck]

Might I suggest not arguing with Alan.

You will not win.

Engard!

[Feraud]

The debounce time wasn’t changed to eliminate only flicks. It was changed to eliminate any touches that are not the result of a thrusting action since foil is supposed to be a thrusting sword. The new timing therefore is also supposed to eliminate grazing hits where the tip just brushes along the lame.
So it just makes touches harder to score… (o.k. maybe too hard since some straight attack now fail, the current test timings are certainly far from perfect.)
Look at it this way; easily scored touches only benefit the poorer fencer. A good fencer should always be able to make good hits.

[CheekyCanuck]

The debounce time wasn’t changed to eliminate only flicks. It was changed to eliminate any touches that are not the result of a thrusting action since foil is supposed to be a thrusting sword. The new timing therefore is also supposed to eliminate grazing hits where the tip just brushes along the lame.
So it just makes touches harder to score… (o.k. maybe too hard since some straight attack now fail, the current test timings are certainly far from perfect.)
Look at it this way; easily scored touches only benefit the poorer fencer. A good fencer should always be able to make good hits.

Good point.
But that still shouldn't cause a bout to become more defensive. Should it?
Isn't it just forcing us to be better fencers?

[Alan]

Good point.
But that still shouldn't cause a bout to become more defensive. Should it?
Isn't it just forcing us to be better fencers?

The question is not if it should ... it does !

Just compare the crap seen with these broken test timings (videos of La Corugna are availaible somewhere) with the brilliant fencing seen in Athens
and you will change your opinion.

See also the thread "Summary of opponents to the test timings" ...

[mrbiggs]

Flicks are not so simple to master. Haven't you noticed that the best foilists before the broken test timings are still the best foilists with the broken test timings ?

I disagree with you on this point, though I agree with you on all others. "Learning to flick" with the old timings took all the effort of going out and buying a $20 flexible blade. Learning to flick WELL did take skill and practice, but at the lower levels of fencing, a GOOD flick wasn't necessary, and bad flicks often won tournaments.


CheekyCanuck, your argument seems to not be about the new timings, but instead about flicks. You might want to check out some of the old threads on flicks, then. These threads go on for pages. I can guarantee that any argument you make has been made before.

Here is a relatively new thread on flicking. There are probably at least 10 more somewhere on the board.

[CheekyCanuck]

CheekyCanuck, your argument seems to not be about the new timings, but instead about flicks. You might want to check out some of the old threads on flicks, then. These threads go on for pages. I can guarantee that any argument you make has been made before.

If the FIE has changed the timings to reduce/stop flicking and grazing attacks, then this is a discussion about flicks.
I don't necessarily have an argument with flicks, I just don't like them.

My arguments/questions are: "Could the flick be considered a new attack, like the lunge once was?" and "Why would the FIE think that this needs to be changed/corrected?"

If you can answer my first question the rest could fall into place.

I'm not trying to get caught up in complaints for or against the new changes. To me they simply exist. The FIE has an agenda and all the points that I've seen so far are not going to persuade them one way or another. If you want to stop them from keeping the new timings, focus on their assigned agenda. Find fault with their agenda and create a counter solution.
A petition may help, but if there are too many fencers (50%+) for or indifferent about the new timings I'd say you just have to get used to it.

I'm probably talking in circles, but I'm still at work and the day has been VERY VERY long.

[Araznal]

The flick is simply an invention that came from the box. I think that, yes, the flick is much like the lunge and both probably sprung up the same way:
In some random club, guys screwing around when suddenly, messing around, guy one hits guy two with a lunge/flick. Guy one says to guy two, "that changes everything, doesn't it?"
I personally think that the flick was great for the sport as it opened up more target and made foil a more offensive weapon. However, because of traditionalists and bad directors, Roch chose to put in these ridiculous rules that make no hit sure, therefore making the attacker reluctant to finish. It just makes me so angry sometimes when I hit someone straight in the sternum, and no light goes off... even when it's perfect form .

Sorry, I got lost in my rant there. I hope I answered your question.

[CheekyCanuck]

The flick is simply an invention that came from the box. I think that, yes, the flick is much like the lunge and both probably sprung up the same way:
In some random club, guys screwing around when suddenly, messing around, guy one hits guy two with a lunge/flick. Guy one says to guy two, "that changes everything, doesn't it?"
I personally think that the flick was great for the sport as it opened up more target and made foil a more offensive weapon. However, because of traditionalists and bad directors, Roch chose to put in these ridiculous rules that make no hit sure, therefore making the attacker reluctant to finish. It just makes me so angry sometimes when I hit someone straight in the sternum, and no light goes off... even when it's perfect form .

Sorry, I got lost in my rant there. I hope I answered your question.

Very much so. Thanks.

[Alan]

I'm not trying to get caught up in complaints for or against the new changes. To me they simply exist.

No the "new timings" are in fact "test timings" for a limited period.

In fact rumors that they will be changed are in the air because
they are rejected by a vast majority of foilists.

Think we are still waiting to see ONE foilist ranked in the top 150 world ranking
in favor of these broken test timings !

[Alan]

For those who understand French and are interested :

a new article about Brice Guyart and the test timings.

http://www.humanite.presse.fr/journa...5-08-01-811420

[dilznik]

Could someone translate it? Please?