Defeated by Lousy Fencers

[jspierre]

How many of you have been beaten by technically inferior fencers, guys (or lady fencers) that have no technique or basically are just reflex fencers with unorthodox styles?

My frustration level is high because I'm always at a loss to translate what I think are technically advanced skills from killer lessons I take with my coach into a consistent winning record on the strip.

Like me, I'd like to know how many feel that they fence and beat other fencers with technique and struggle with people who really have no approach to the sport?

[Shadow Fencer]

Are you fencing beginner fencers? One of the tips given to me is to keep things simple.

They may not react to your feint disengage because their parry has not yet developed as a reaction to an attack to that particular line.

This has happened to me and yes it's frustrating, but on the other hand, that's what keeps fencing so interesting when fencing people of many abilities. I think it's sometimes more challenging to fence individuals of varying ability during a tournament. It keeps you on your toes! Also its a good lesson in winning and losing graciously!



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I live to fence and fence to live!!

[attila]

Dude

There is an old addage- " the proof is in the pudding" If your skills are superior you will win. If they are not you will lose. That is the way it is with an electric box. Maybe you should think about losing to losers. You may not be approaching the GAME properly. There is a whole lot to making a whole fancing game. You may need a little more instruction in tachnique and tactics. Anyone can be taken by a complete rookie if you don't do the right thing. Think about it...........

[ladybug]

jspierre:

I have the same problem, and agree with Shadow Fencers solution. The problem with fencing newbies is that they don't know how to react to what your doing, or do something totally unexpected. You practice a move (for example feint head, cut flank) get it down perfectly, go to execute it - and instead of reacting to the feint they just cut into your attack while you are changing the line. Their action, even though they probably just panicking and got lucky.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally posted by ladybug:
jspierre:

I have the same problem, and agree with Shadow Fencers solution. The problem with fencing newbies is that they don't know how to react to what your doing, or do something totally unexpected. You practice a move (for example feint head, cut flank) get it down perfectly, go to execute it - and instead of reacting to the feint they just cut into your attack while you are changing the line. Their action, even though they probably just panicking and got lucky.

This is what I like to call the strength of amateurs, and ladybug is absolutely correct.

Resist the urge to try that new flick you just learned and figure out what's working on your opponent. if the always fall for, perhaps, a bind in four, then a parry riposte when they go to your six line, then do it until they figure it out. Not your fault if it's 14-0 when they do.

Don't beat yourself. The quickest way for an experienced fencer to get nailed or even beat by someone with far less skill is if you're not taking them seriously and are farting around on the strip. Remember, they're trying to beat you, the better fencer, and NO ONE is going to lay down and give up just because you've got more experience.




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Sam Signorelli -- I'll be mellow when I'm
DEAD!

[swordsen]

Bravo Sam, I couldn't agree more.

As I used to tell my fencers, If you do something and it works, keep doing it untill it stops working. If something you do doesn't work, do something else. A tournament is not the place to practice the move you are almost hitting with.

[Mergs]

Amen, Sam!

Had that happen to me this weekend, damn it! Next tourney in two weeks, we'll see if the old dog can learn from his mistakes.

"Professionals are predictable, its the amatuers that are dangerous!"

[Cutter]

My two cents - when fencing a beginner, keep it simple. They don't react like an experienced fencer so those feint disengages will have no effect. Look for timing and your own good body position for parrys. Most new fencers are not very good at timing and distance. Use attack in preparation and parry reposts but make the repost to an unusual target as most new people re trained that a repost will come to a certain target if their attack fails. Most important, don't do the fancy stuff, they just won't do what you want them to do.

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Cutter
"Don't run with that, you'll poke your eye out."

[Bugaboo]

New fencers prove the addage, "He's got just enough knowledge to be dangerous."

[jspierre]

Great advice from all but I don't think I made my point clear enough: Fencing has a 500 year history; detailed technical manuals were written in the 16th Century, scientifically expalining moves and logical counter-moves. Down to today, top coaches teach systems of techniques and demand perfection in execution. But I cannot think of another sport where there is such an incredible gap at many levels between theory and practice. What I mean is that if you learn how to hit a golf ball correctly, chances are, if you apply the technique, you'll drive the ball far, and improve, step by step your game. If you learn in tennis how to hit a ground stroke, chances are if you work at it, your game will progress and you can almost directly apply the technique in a game situation. But in fencing, it seems the nothing is farther from the truth. You are taught how to make a perfect bind, or parry riposte, or coupe, or whatever, and in actual practice, there is little chance or even likelihood that applying learned skills directly results in success. Sure, over the long haul, good technique will beat unorthodox styles and inferior skilled fencers, but so little time is really taught preparing for what you really need to know about fencing. It's left to everyone to learn through the school of hard knocks, which, I am afraid, knocks out alot of potentially interested athletes. I find taking a lesson extrememly satisfying, challenging at every level, and chances are, I'm left with a sense of progress. But bouting, on average, is really not so enjoyable. Hacks abound, and coaches are no where to be found really investing the time to sort out alot of crap on the strip. If it were a basketball scrimmage, the coach would stop the action and correct mistakes, and encourage good technique and strategy.

You get my point.

Admittedly, I've really never had the chance to view "pro" quality fencers in Europe. The chances of seeing pre-historic, light in the dark fish 3 miles underwater on the Discovery Channel is better than getting a chance to watch a World Cup in Fencing in the U.S.

I just think this sport has a long way to go, and lives with an ironic situation, that we have master fencers/coaches who have perserved and modernized and built on a 500 year history of sword fighting, but the average quality of play is oftentimes close to brutal, seemingly in alot of clubs, and schools around the U.S.

[DarkTransient]

And you can have the best move/technique in the world, but if the director doesn't look at it your way, there is ABSOLUTELY nothing you can do.


[This message has been edited by DarkTransient (edited 02-27-2001).]

actually dark... there is a way... fence epee ; )
j/k ... i know what you meant... but i had to... it was so open... begging to be said

[Bugaboo]

Learning to fence opponents of varying skill IS part of the game. A good fencer CAN handle "newbies" without a lot of trouble. Knowing how and when to apply tactics is a skill just as much as executing the bind itself.

And, yes, it's something that comes with experience. It's as much a part of a fencing lesson and "free bouting" as anything else. Do you really expect a coach to watch every one of your personal forays on the piste and hold your hand while you make a few mistakes?

Whining about it is a waste of spirit.
"It's not FAIR! I learnt real good - Why can't I winnnnn?!"

[DarkTransient]

And you should never consider yourself "suprior" for your own sake.
It was quite possibly your opponent was only pretending that way and tricked you into an arrogant mind set and took advantage of it. Fencing is as psychological as it is physical.
Lost a game? Learn from it. It is still true even if your opponent is a beginner. Hey, he must be doing something right.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally posted by DarkTransient:
It is still true even if your opponent is a beginner. Hey, he must be doing something right.

Oh, absolutely! Nothing pleases me more (in salle, of course) than one of the beginners totally suckering me into following a series of feints and skewering me one-light. I don't LIKE kicking everyone's *** without breaking a sweat. I WANT to be tested and pushed by the guys who are trying to get "just one touch" off of me. We BOTH improve that way. That's one reason I continue to do the informal Wednesday night comps as SwordPlay rather than go to Westside or other stronger clubs and get beat on by the A's and B's. it's not because my ego can't handle being beaten. I get beatn a lot, by all skill levels and in al three weapons, and anyone who's watched me lose a close bout knows I'm always smiling when the mask comes off. As long as it's a good, tough fight and I have fun, I can go home happy.

Continually fencing the less experienced may not improve my higher skills, but it forces me not to screw around with the lower skills.

Even an "A" can learn from a "U".

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Sam Signorelli -- I'll be mellow when I'm
DEAD!

[fencingguy]

jspierre,

when you are fencing are you trying to give your opponent the perfect feed so that they can execute a textbook parry 6 riposte? Maybe you are, but most people are trying to make them react in some way that will let you score. Because of this there are many oppurtunities for something to not look technically perfect, you just have ot learn to deal with it. At some point you'll hopefully realize that fencing is not about looking pretty on the strip, it's about scoring touches and winning. The reason you learn things in a very specific way is because at the higher levels when other people are also fencing a technically clean bout then you'll find that you will be able to as well. I've seen and fenced in world cups and at that level fencing can be very clean and precise, but it can also be a nasty dogfight. It's just one of those things that happens in any sport. The only reason you can use Golf as an example is because you don't have some one else trying to prevent you from doing what you want to do. Look at any sport where two people are playing against each other. Do you think wrestlers (freestyle or greco roman, not wwf)always make the perfect grab or throw? In fencing your opponent is trying to prevent you from doing what you want to do while simultaneously doing what they want to. If you cant do that your not going to win consistently. SO don't worry if a newbie beats you once or twice, as long as they weren't controlling the bout it's not a big deal, just simplify what your doing next time. Eventually you'll find that you can fence, and beat, a beginner with crappy form without compromising your own. Until then realize that your goal is to score and win not look good. I used to have the same problem, I had great form, but I couldn't win consistently against scrubs. At some point I just started trying to score and didn't give two cents what I looked like doing it. That was when I really began to improve, and not only place occaisionally at tournaments, but started to win.

[sdcox]

At this point, you might want to find some perspective. You're frustration is high. I know that my frustration level with fencing cycles and that current frustration is usually a phase from which I'm actually learning a lot. There have been many points where I've lived for lessons and found bouting frustrating. Moving skills from lessons to bouting is difficult and can take time even once the actions are perfect in the relative vaccuum of a lesson.
When fencing lousy fencers, work on choosing just the right action for the circumstances. Find simple actions like drawing a stop hit and making a parry and a direct riposte. Fence at the tactical level. You can't make a fencer of a certain level do a double or go for the counter parry if they're not going to. It's very frustrating to try. Find out what you *can* make them do (extend?, advance one step too close?) and use it. This will help you when you fence better fencers, too, because you'll have practice thinking when to use what action, how to pick up on what your opponent wants to do, and how to take advantage of that.

Good luck,
Susan

[darius]

I've had that happen -- after a few months of training at RFC, I went to a big regional comp, fenced relatively well in the Open (A1) event, and then proceeded to do horribly in the E and Under, literally placing worse against unrated fencers than against folks on the Nat. Points list.

Occasionally, I pop into a beginning collegiate class that my coach teaches, just to make sure that the basics are still there.

Against more untrained fencers, I just slow the game down to make sure I don't do anything stupid; beginners don't react well to slow pressuring advances or slow extensions, they counterattack or try to make a wild parry, which is easily dealt with by finishing hard.

darius

[sabreur]

There are really two issues here:

One is that purely technical expertise doesn't necessarily translate into success on the strip. You can take a great lesson and flail when it comes to facing a living breathing person who's trying to do their best to thwart your plans and execute their own.

The second is that fencing is a thinking game--90% mind and 10% body. That's why many different physical types can succeed as fencers. If you're losing to beginners, you're not using the tactical circle to figure out what you should be doing--with beginners, the starting and ending point on the tactical circle is a straight, simple attack--the trick is slowing down your footwork, taking your time in preparation, and picking the right time to hit with a lunge or advance lunge.

It may be that you are overestimating your own ability, or underestimating the ability of your opponents. Just because someone looks unconventional or clumsy doesn't mean they aren't a good bout fencer--as someone else said, the proof of the pudding is what happens on the strip.

It also takes a long time to transfer abilities you've mastered in lessons to the strip--it is just a really different environment, and one that requires much more control.

The first step toward becoming a good fencer is not losing bouts you shouldn't lose. The second step is to begin winning bouts that you can win.

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Why sabre? Because you don't take heads with the point.

[mangofever]

As all human being come into contact with other human beings, who have varing skills and abilities, as well as other factors such as: the mood you were in that day, and your opponents mood. So, it is very possible that you can be defeated by a less experienced opponent, but not every day.
Also, in retrospect and in response to the input by purple fencer(?) that fencers tend to practice drills that when executed against a less experienced fencer will not always produce the expected desired result. As they say in fiji: Expect the Unexpected. As the comparision of fencing and chess are almost inevitable, I'll add this: chess masters know every opening, middle and end game there is, they also know that their oponents can know the same things. What happens many times at a high level are stalemates and draws. What makes chess as well as fencing very interesting, are the little surprises that inexperienced fencers can deliver - I speak from inexperience.

[This message has been edited by mangofever (edited 03-01-2001).]