capital punishment, yay or nay?

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Philistine

In 1988 the Supreme Court held that where a state's statute doesn't specify an age--16 is the cutoff age.

And there has only been one person who got the death penalty at age 16 since those reforms. (He killed a random cashier, got away with it, and then, 6 months later, killed his parents. For fun.)

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by LordTofuDog-jnr

Capital Punishment is a retarded idea.

Here we go...

Originally Posted by LordTofuDog-jnr

What if the person is innocent?

The person has been convicted by our Justice system. If you don't have faith in our justice system, any punishment is unfair. Also, Soldier pointed out that only very sure cases get the death penalty.

Originally Posted by LordTofuDog-jnr

The executioner becomes as guilty as the victim.

Well, I guess soon we can switch to an automated lethal injection.

Originally Posted by LordTofuDog-jnr

"Eye for and eye" is only going to cause more suffering.

Why?

Originally Posted by LordTofuDog-jnr

Why is it that around 90% of Texas' executions are of black people?

Texas has problems that go far above and beyond the death penalty, but those are separate problems. Racism may be a problem, but that doesn't mean we can't punish criminals.

Originally Posted by LordTofuDog-jnr

All it takes is one sadistic judge and people will by dying all over the place.

Actually, all it takes is like 5 or 6 sadistic judges, all for one person. With the death penalty, there are appeals. And more appeals. And it's very rare that a death sentence stays in one court. In if it IS unreasonable, it will not stand.

Originally Posted by LordTofuDog-jnr

Seventy years of maximum security prison surrounded by "lonely" men is worse that a quick death.

Actually, they probably wouldn't surround them with anyone. Solitary confinement for murderers, rapists, etc. But then there's the problem, what if they escape? Do you want to risk that? I don't.

[Philistine]

Originally Posted by LordTofuDog-jnr

{snip}
Why is it that around 90% of Texas' executions are of black people?
{snip}

They're not.

Since 1976:

RACE of Executed
Asian............. 2 (1%)
Black.............115 (34%)
Latino............49 (15%)
White............171 (50%)

Texas Death Penalty Stats

Texas population, by race:

Asian............................2.7%
Black............................11.5%
Latino...........................32%
White (non-hispanic).......52.4%

Texas Stats

(Bow before my Google-foo)

--Philistine

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Soldier

...last.

Start at the ankles.

No, the OTHER head.

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by LUDICROUS

...but after they get a live rendition of Iron Maiden's "Iron Maiden" song.

I thought that's what an Iron Maiden torture device was.

[akaiyuki]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Life in prison is expensive, shotgun shells are cheap.

Not if we force them to work

[Inquartata]

As Bill Maher would say, "I am pro-death". There are too many people on earth as it is, and I don't see why we should go out of our way to preserve the worst of them. Even in cases where mistakes are made, the executee is almost never what you'd call a valuable member of society.

The studies which have purported to show that life imprisonment is more expensive than execution are very flawed, in that, for example, they consider the costs of death-row appeals but not those filed by incarcerated inmates...who, given life sentences, are going to be filing those appeals for a very long time. The costs of prison construction are not considered, only maintenance and upkeep costs. Etc.

Capital punishment DOES have a deterrent effect. It deters the executed party from ever committing a future crime...and yes, some death row inmates continue to commit crimes, from fraud to murder, from their cells. Dead is as deterred as one can get.

Too, though vengeance seems to get listed automatically as a 'bad' thing or an unworthy emotion, I am not sure there's much evidence that it has only bad consequences---evidence, not the gut feelings of those opposed to it...

All in all, yes, I'd have to vote 'yea'---though not in the terms of the poll
( which is why I haven't actually voted on it ). Swift and painless is preferable in most cases, I think.

[ThatReallyHurt]

Originally Posted by Moonitic

They would be LOTS of fun to use as fencing dummies. Groin shot practice. Perhaps with a "live" blade (sharpened tip). Yes...

I'd have to include child molesters in that bunch.

And people who make me late for appointments (there is a story behind this...)

My answer to the question? Hmm...maybe. But I am in no way able to make such a large decision. I do not envy anyone (judges, juries) put into such a position.

That reminds me of something - a few years ago, there was a major riot at a nearby prison. Once the prisoners managed to get out of their cells, guess what a lot of them did? They went after the child molesters and permanently maimed some (cut off fingers, as I recall), and those who couldn't get away were beaten horribly. It was weird - news reports at the time made it sound like the other prisoners made a beeline to where the molesters were, and got to work without wasting any time.

I'm still surprised at that kind of action, even now. I used to think about it as an "honour among thieves" kind of thing, but that now strikes me as an oversimplification...

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by ThatReallyHurt

That reminds me of something - a few years ago, there was a major riot at a nearby prison. Once the prisoners managed to get out of their cells, guess what a lot of them did? They went after the child molesters and permanently maimed some (cut off fingers, as I recall), and those who couldn't get away were beaten horribly. It was weird - news reports at the time made it sound like the other prisoners made a beeline to where the molesters were, and got to work without wasting any time.

It is those stories that truly make me think that humanity definately has a hope.

It's not something that should be encouraged, though. Child molestation is a crime that has a history of unreliable witnesses and possible false accusations. It would really suck to have a mob of criminals bearing down on you, the mob including murderers, hit men, etc., if you were innocent.

[ThatReallyHurt]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

It is those stories that truly make me think that humanity definately has a hope.

It's not something that should be encouraged, though. Child molestation is a crime that has a history of unreliable witnesses and possible false accusations. It would really suck to have a mob of criminals bearing down on you, the mob including murderers, hit men, etc., if you were innocent.

You're bang on. The whole "if you're innocent" thing puts a big kink into the system...

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by ThatReallyHurt

You're bang on. The whole "if you're innocent" thing puts a big kink into the system...

Are you talking about the death penalty or criminals killing child molesters?

[ThatReallyHurt]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Are you talking about the death penalty or criminals killing child molesters?

I was specifically thinking about the death penalty there, but I think it applies to both - if you were truly innocent and everything worked properly, you wouldn't need to worry about either situation.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by ThatReallyHurt

I was specifically thinking about the death penalty there, but I think it applies to both - if you were truly innocent and everything worked properly, you wouldn't need to worry about either situation.

I don't think it applies to the death penalty. For one, child molesters don't get the death penalty. Secondly, the death penalty requires more than one or two child witnesses. Thirdly, I would much rather get lethal injection than be tortured by a bunch of criminals.

[MikeHarm]

Here is the crux of one of my problems with the death penalty as it is now. If someone essentially isn't human.. their brain is screwed up, they don't think human at all just randomly pounce and kill.. then they are insane, and being insane they get off because of how it works.

It really sucks that just because the courts felt silly putting cows on trial that they had make it that you have to prove someone who does something that any rational person would consider proof that you were insane was sane at the time to convict them.

If anything I think it would be even more important to put the insane to death just to be on the safe side after they start killing and attacking innocent people.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I said yay because of some cases that are just so horrific that I can't imagine that the suspect is even human. No offence to anyone who said nay, but you have to think of what the victim went through. They're walking to their car at night and this guy comes from behind and takes them away and brutally murders them. Do you think that their lasts moments on this earth were nice? I don't think so. I don't think that a little injection would even equal the amount of pain and suffering that their victims went through; they get off easy. That is why I said yay.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

No, the OTHER head.

yeah, we got that. we chose to ignore it.

Originally Posted by Inquartata

As Bill Maher would say, "I am pro-death". There are too many people on earth as it is, and I don't see why we should go out of our way to preserve the worst of them. Even in cases where mistakes are made, the executee is almost never what you'd call a valuable member of society.

what about martha stewart??? .... she's full of.... good things....

Originally Posted by Inquartata

The studies which have purported to show that life imprisonment is more expensive than execution are very flawed, in that, for example, they consider the costs of death-row appeals but not those filed by incarcerated inmates...who, given life sentences, are going to be filing those appeals for a very long time. The costs of prison construction are not considered, only maintenance and upkeep costs. Etc.

SIR, YOU MISPOKE. "the studies which have purported to show that life imprisonment is less expensive...." is what you were trying to say. : P

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Capital punishment DOES have a deterrent effect. It deters the executed party from ever committing a future crime...and yes, some death row inmates continue to commit crimes, from fraud to murder, from their cells. Dead is as deterred as one can get.

but... but... if we kill the murderers, they can't kill the child molesters....

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Too, though vengeance seems to get listed automatically as a 'bad' thing or an unworthy emotion, I am not sure there's much evidence that it has only bad consequences---evidence, not the gut feelings of those opposed to it...

All in all, yes, I'd have to vote 'yea'---though not in the terms of the poll
( which is why I haven't actually voted on it ). Swift and painless is preferable in most cases, I think.

"swift and painless" is exactly what i don't want for those criminals. i want them tortured by themselves for the rest of eternity.

[LordTofuDog-jnr]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Here we go...



The person has been convicted by our Justice system. If you don't have faith in our justice system, any punishment is unfair. Also, Soldier pointed out that only very sure cases get the death penalty.

No, I just think that murder under any circumstance is unfair. Also, I live in Australia and as such "our" justice systems are different. We don't kill people.

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Well, I guess soon we can switch to an automated lethal injection.

Then the programmer or the guy that types "run needle.exe" is guilty.

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Why?

You can't be serious?! More death is not going to cause people to be a little peeved?

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Texas has problems that go far above and beyond the death penalty, but those are separate problems. Racism may be a problem, but that doesn't mean we can't punish criminals.[/?

Agreed! The only problem there is that racism is rampant through out the world and as such will influence people's views.

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Actually, all it takes is like 5 or 6 sadistic judges, all for one person. With the death penalty, there are appeals. And more appeals. And it's very rare that a death sentence stays in one court. In if it IS unreasonable, it will not stand.

I mean it as in one judge constantly sentencing to death wether it works or not.

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Actually, they probably wouldn't surround them with anyone. Solitary confinement for murderers, rapists, etc. But then there's the problem, what if they escape? Do you want to risk that? I don't.

To quote you "the person has been convicted by our Justice system. If you don't have faith in our justice system, any punishment is unfair."
Do you think it is possible for somebody who you say would live in solitary confinement under constant watch by heavily armed men whilst living in a building with locked steel doors every 10 metres to just escape?

Any way, this is just MY opinion, feel free to not try and impose your barbaric views on me.
---
I should also mention that murder has the lowest recurrence rate of any serious crime, almost ALL are done in the heat of the moment.

[Louweasel]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Life in prison is expensive, shotgun shells are cheap. We can do alot more good with that extra million per lifetime than we would with them in prison doing nothing for society.

As I stated before, that's not actually true. The relentless appeals and other extended court proceedings that go hand in hand with a death penalty judgement mean court costs are massive, which is all out of public money. Plus I believe it is more expensive to maintain a prisoner on death row than in normal prison.

[Louweasel]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Even in cases where mistakes are made, the executee is almost never what you'd call a valuable member of so