Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

Alain · 01-23-2005, 07:07 PM

Hey,

I'm an épéeist -

- but at university we have to do all 3 weapons (*shudder*). Today I was fencing sabre, and then just sorta did that flêche-hop thing to whack my mate over the head, in a friendly kinda way...

Um, anyway, doing a proper weapon, the flêchihop isn't a move I do regularly - it feels really weird to do - could any of you very nice sabreurs let me in on the secret to doing it properly?!

Thanks for your help

P.S. If you're a sabreur, then I didn't mean to offend you. I'm sure you're a really nice person, did you lose weight..?
P.P.S. Flêchihop. What do you think, a new addition to Oxford's English Dictionary?

sabrepoet · 01-23-2005, 07:18 PM

The action that you are talking about is called, by us sabreurs, a flunge. essentially, it starts like a lunge but with more momentum behind it. the end result is that you are half lunging / half jumping at your opponent. unfortunately, it's not very easy to describe the proper biomechanics of it in prose. just give it a try a few times in practice until you can get it to feel like a fluid extension of an advance.

hope this helps.

Inquartata · 01-23-2005, 07:20 PM

AKA the flunge, or my personal favorite, the Flying Weasel.

It's done in the same way as a fleche, except you don't let the back foot cross in front of the forward foot as you finish. ( Well, actually you can get away with doing a standard fleche so long as you or your opponent hit before the crossover, thus stopping the action before you trangress the no-crossover rule. )

One way to do this is to let the back foot kick the heel of your front foot as you do the action, thus ensuring it doesn't go past. Then you have to land on your forward foot...

In all candor I'm not the best person to give advice on the maneuver. I've only recently been able to get something resembling it into my repertoire. Plus I'm getting to old for such gymnastics...

prototoast · 01-23-2005, 07:34 PM

Honestly, I think you're better off without it. While a flunge can be a very useful skill, unless you're good at it, it will hurt more than it helps. Given that you still remain primarily an epee fencer, I would stick with more familiar footwork. You'll probably be more effective with it.

Epee_Pox · 01-23-2005, 07:49 PM

You know that football drill where you sort of skip sideways without crossing your legs? Is that sort of the same kind of movement?

jeff · 01-23-2005, 08:02 PM

It makes me think "bring back the fleche", like the other weapons still have, and get out of this "fleche in all but name and crossing the front foot with the rear".

prototoast · 01-23-2005, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff

It makes me think "bring back the fleche", like the other weapons still have, and get out of this "fleche in all but name and crossing the front foot with the rear".

But that would make too much sense for the FIE.

Epee_Pox · 01-23-2005, 08:26 PM

If we're making changes to sabre, can I suggest one too? How about we make the blade more like a cutlass or infantry sword (cavalry sabres are too long, I think). The sport blade just disappoints, you know?

Ooh! Ooh! How about we let them run at each other full tilt, but passing each other doesn't stop the action -- just turn around and head back in or back-swipe in passing. I'd watch!

jeff · 01-23-2005, 08:33 PM

Attrition, Epee_pox, attrition. If all the sabre fencers maim and kill each other then the FIE and USFA would lose their dues, the manufactors their sales, and so on. Well, the benefit to society of reducing the number of sabre fencers may make it worthwhile!

ViewtifulMisho · 01-23-2005, 10:17 PM

The flunge is a naturally-evolving move, that appears in your reportoir when it is its proper time to do so. It's not something you should make your goal to learn.

whtouche · 01-23-2005, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prototoast

But that would make too much sense for the FIE.

Maybe I missed your meaning, but what would make too much sense for the FIE to do?
To bring back the fleche?

Actually I think the reason sabre doesn't have it anymore is because it's ban makes sense.

KShan5[PrFC] · 01-23-2005, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff

It makes me think "bring back the fleche", like the other weapons still have, and get out of this "fleche in all but name and crossing the front foot with the rear".

Id have to disagree, I think there is a very big difference between a flunge and a fleche, in both the speed of the move and the distance. A felche is going to happen much faster. Plus, when comparing distance, a fleche can cover more distance, because just thinking about the move, it is going to be completely linear, as opossed to losing some distance in the vertical motion of the move.

jeff · 01-23-2005, 11:22 PM

whtouche, that's a proposition worth discussing. I think the fleche was a tactically useful and dramatic move, and that today the flunge basically is a fleche where you do everything except cross-over (the letter of the rule but not it's spirit) and the result just looks ugly to me). Yet another thing we have to explain to novices or spectators that's different from one weapon to the next? Why do you think the ban is a good idea? I'd like to hear.

KshanPRC - Sorry, I don't follow. I think the two are very closely related. Vertical motion? I'm not sure what point you're making: that they're completely different moves and removing fleche did _not_ lead to the flunge???

KShan5[PrFC] · 01-23-2005, 11:29 PM

I think it is a good idea. I wasn't around when the fleche was legal in sabre, but from what I hear, sabre was pretty much run at your opponent and hit them. There wasn't much tactics when it came to it, just make sure you start first, and run as hard as you can. Obviously, this is an oversimplified view of what it was like (and could be completely distorted-so correct me if i am wrong), but, I think that the ban made sabre more clean. Therefore, I think the flunge is a happy compromise between what was, and what the rule states. I don't think the flunge is as close to the fleche as you are saying, and thus the letter and the spirit of the law are both being enforced.

prototoast · 01-24-2005, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whtouche

Maybe I missed your meaning, but what would make too much sense for the FIE to do?
To bring back the fleche?

Actually I think the reason sabre doesn't have it anymore is because it's ban makes sense.

I think the removal of the fleche was somewhat arbitrary, and it really is an unnatural restriction. I think that the way sabre is called today (particularly with the new timings), I don't think that the removal of the fleche certainly doesn't make sabre better, and it might make it worse.

mrbiggs · 01-24-2005, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prototoast

I think the removal of the fleche was somewhat arbitrary, and it really is an unnatural restriction. I think that the way sabre is called today (particularly with the new timings), I don't think that the removal of the fleche certainly doesn't make sabre better, and it might make it worse.

I'm not positive, but wasn't the removal of the fleche linked with the removal of "priority" in sabre? I don't think that the concept of priority is consistent with any part of fencing or any sport at all. If they could put the fleche in without reinstituting priority or making bouts ridiculously simultaneous, then that would be good. But when they did have the fleche, bouts were either with priority, or ridiculously simlutaneous.

Of course, I'm a foil/epeeist, and I was 3 when the fleche was banned, so I can't pretend to be an expert here.

tsalyards · 01-24-2005, 12:11 AM

When fleche was legal is sabre, it was a beautful and elegant weapon. The sabre of today looks hiedeous in comparison.

prototoast · 01-24-2005, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

I'm not positive, but wasn't the removal of the fleche linked with the removal of "priority" in sabre? I don't think that the concept of priority is consistent with any part of fencing or any sport at all. If they could put the fleche in without reinstituting priority or making bouts ridiculously simultaneous, then that would be good. But when they did have the fleche, bouts were either with priority, or ridiculously simlutaneous.

Of course, I'm a foil/epeeist, and I was 3 when the fleche was banned, so I can't pretend to be an expert here.

I don't know if they were both removed at the same time, but priority was a stupid idea. The fleche is a useful piece of footwork that has no good reason for being allowed.

AndrewH · 01-24-2005, 01:05 AM

I think that with the new timing, the re-introduction of the fleche might not lead to the problems that it was originally banned for. Why was it banned? Because on the command of "fence", both fencers would run at each other, leading to endless simaltaneous actions. But with the faster lockout time, an advance lunge, properly executed with the arm coming to full extension before the lunge lands, could gain ROW over an advance-fleche from the en guard line. In every other aspect of sabre fencing the fleche would be virtually identical in use to the flunge, as previous posters have pointed out, the two actions are essentially the same in "spirit".

The only unintended consequence I see is, the ability to fleche might make AIP even faster than when executed with a flunge. Thats not necessarily a bad thing either, it would serve to even out the advantage the attacker has and give some more power to the defender.

sabreur · 01-24-2005, 04:06 AM

As someone who actually fenced when the cross-over was allowed in sabre, it is my not so humble opinion that it would be disasterous to allow the cross-over again.

Everyone chit-chats about how nice it would be to have the fleche back, completely overlooking the fact that sabre footwork used to be almost exclusively running hither and yon. It is not the fleche per se that is the problem, it is the running, but it is hard to see how you reintroduce the fleche without allowing the running.

The flunge is a pretty effective substitute for the fleche in those situations when it would be appropriate in a non-running world to use a fleche--i.e., rapid change of direction when your opponent ends short, or you want to attack in prep. As Quart notes, you can actually perform an action that begins entirely like a fleche, except you bring the back foot BEHIND the heel of the front foot (which keeps you from crossing over). The recovery from this action is a little ungainly, but the action UP TO THE TOUCH (or at least, where the touch should occur) is almost identical to a regular fleche.

In fact, the way I teach the flunge is to teach a traditional fleche. Once the student has this action down, then I teach them to modify it with the back foot behind the front heel.

Sabre footwork is very interesting and complex now. I think the good idea people ought to focus their attention on foil, and leave sabre alone.

MR