That Thing They Do In Sabre... the flêchihop

[Teme]

Originally Posted by sabreur

As someone who actually fenced when the cross-over was allowed in sabre, it is my not so humble opinion that it would be disasterous to allow the cross-over again.

<snip>

Sabre footwork is very interesting and complex now. I think the good idea people ought to focus their attention on foil, and leave sabre alone.

Hear, all ye good people, hear what this brilliant and eloquent speaker has to say!

[jeff]

I also fenced sabre doing the fleche days (not as my primary weapon), and liked the occasional use of a fleche and _hated_ the run-run-run fencing ("Ready? Fence!" "run run run from both fencers" "bang bang" - both hit as hard as they can, turn to the director and scream. Ugh). What always seemed to be the problem then is that directors never treated the run as the continuation of the attack rather than the initial attack that ended with the rear foot touching the piste after the crossover. If there were calls of "attack from left _no_ (the fleche), attack from right _yes_, running attack from left is remise out of time" it would have been different

I guess in that regard the flunge is good because it short-circuits the run where the feet would have crossed. I still think it looks ugly though...

I think sabreur wants the idea people to focus on foil because he's worried that once they look at sabre they'll think of some other wacky ideas to mess it up!

[Epee_Pox]

Aw, man! Where's the fun in that? I want more wacky ideas!

The thing that bugs me about sabre is its apparent lack of style. A typical point happens like this: (1) at the command, one fencer advance-advance-advances, the other retreat-retreat-retreats; (2) one swipes at the other, and lights go off; (3) both turn to the director and claim the point was theirs. All over in under three seconds. Yaaaaawn.

To eliminate this lack of style, I propose a volley rule. No point can be allowed until both fencers have successively attacked and parried twice. This will lead to interesting blade-clashing as fencers set up third-strike attacks with more long-term strategy. I'd watch!

[Bokken]

As another of the 'old school' sabrists, I cast my vote to keep the *^)(*#@ fleche out of saber. Inevitably, where there's fleching there's running, and in saber (yes, I spell it -er) that just meant simultaneous, priority (which was the most hideously abused system on the planet), etc etc. YAAAAAAWN.

I like saber without the fleche a hell of a lot more, it requires actual tactics and strategy rather than "Ugh. Me run, hit him with club and scream." I very much dislike the flunge, as other posters say it does look ugly.

[Inquartata]

One more vote of "good riddance" to the fleche in sabre...or rather, as has been pointed out, to the running which inevitably and inextricably accompanies it. I'm as reactionary as they come, and at the time of the ban I thought it would damage sabre, but even I had to admit that it had the opposite effect: cleaned up the footwork immensely and restored the phrase.

There seems no good way to get rid of the running attack while retaining the fleche, because fencers would simply argue that they were not running but merely going from one fleche straight into another...then another...then another. Distinction without a difference.

To those epeeists who want to tinker with sabre, I vote that we take away epeeists' bell guards and make them use swept hilts, so their weapon hands are easily-hit target.

[keith]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

To those epeeists who want to tinker with sabre, I vote that we take away epeeists' bell guards and make them use swept hilts, so their weapon hands are easily-hit target.

how dull I thought you were going to suggest nailing their feet to the floor to stop them bouncing.

[Inquartata]

No, I'd like to see more of that, it's very amusing. Maybe we could make them wear spring-shoes, for 'xtreme!' bouncing...

[Epee_Pox]

Epee Flubber-style!

I'd watch!

[Alain]

Thanks for all your posts, boys 'n' girls I never used to like sabre, could never see the point of two big people charging at each other, wrapping their blade round each others heads, and then screaming at the ref - like foil in many respects, 'cept a lot more painful...

Nowadays, though, it does seem to have calmed down. It's pretty good fun and I enjoy fencing it for uni... though I still haven't the foggiest about this ROW thingy! And besides, by g/friend was rather impressed with the tiger-like striped torso...

Aaaaaanyway, as for the flunge - I still prefer flêchihop - I fenced on Monday and put your advice into practice... thanks! I don't like to do it often, but when the opponent is close enough, a well-timed flunge and whack to head is just the medicine. Fantastic, just what you need after a hard day of not studying

I have one last question on the subject, though. From what I understand, you're allowed to cross over your feet, as long as it happens after hitting your opponent? If so, this would be wonderful. I was taught, and teach others, to time the flêche so that the hit is scored before your back foot lands on the floor. So, in theory, in sabre I'd be able to do a proper flêche anyway..? Or not?

So, one last question for the experts: I was told (by a sabreur) that if you try to take line, then it only counts if your palm is facing downwards, not upwards (like an épée hit) - why is that?

Thanks for your help

[Inquartata]

I don't think that last is in the rules. However, it's most easily done with the hand in pronation, because it keeps the ( commonly curved ) blade pointed down at the opponent's body rather that up toward his head...and the line has to be aimed at target, not somewhere in the upper atmosphere. Also, the position keeps the hand better protected: the knucklebow defends the outside of the arm, usually the part the fencer watches least when looking at the opponent.

Yes, if you or the opponent hit before you crossover you can fleche, but if you are parried, or miss, or the light doesn't go off due to that mysterious blade-contact lockout business that's become so much more common with the new timing, you will get carded...and if you already have a yellow card will gift your opponent with a point. And the action has to be stopped by a light before the back foot passes the front, NOT merely before it lands...

[whtouche]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

I don't think that last is in the rules. However, it's most easily done with the hand in pronation, because it keeps the ( commonly curved ) blade pointed down at the opponent's body rather that up toward his head...

It's also much easier to disengage from this position, or to remove the line to attack/counter attack.

[jeff]

Sigh. As ugly as (IMO) the flunge is, I guess it's worth it to get rid of the two trains on the same railroad track fencing I used to see. I have to admit that things are a lot more watchable now.

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by Alain

Aaaaaanyway, as for the flunge - I still prefer flêchihop....

I fenced at a club where they called it the "sabre-fleche." I like that better than "flunge," but "flunge" has worked its way into the commonly accepted vocabulary.

MR

[scrapinpeg]

Sounds like a plumbing-related word.

[grotto]

I don't much like the flunge, I would have rather the FIE restrict, the crossover rule to something like "you can only cross during the execution of a fleche which must end either by passing the opponent in one step. or ending up in the normal onguard at the conclusion of the action. seeing a well executed sabre fleche was awesome, it was all the running crash, running crash, that killed the fleche.

[scrapinpeg]

Originally Posted by scrapinpeg

Sounds like a plumbing-related word.

Thanks to whoever gave me the rep points for that. You gave me my second little green dot! Woo hoo!

[sabreman]

I think the flunge becomes more risky with the new timing. They need to be VERY direct or you risk being blocked out.