Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

Catal · 02-24-2001, 08:04 PM

Hey, people. I got a question about cheating and maybe you can help me answer it.

I've been fencing Epee in a particular district for about a year now, and I'm noticing some very odd things.

The first and most important thing being that people on my team are making touches that aren't setting the buzzer off. These aren't light touches either, these are dead on touches that bend the blade. I undestand that if the tip isn't right on target, you can miss the point, once in a while. But, when you miss dozens of points against the same few fencers, that calls the odds into question. The blades we're using are in good working order, so qustionable equipment isn't the problem.

Now, I understand that it is possible to use a device that GIVES you touches; but, is it possible to have a device that prevents other fencers from getting touches against you?

I noticed some of the fencers asking if they were grounded. I didn't hear the whole context of their conversations, they could have been refering to the strip they were on for all I know, but something fishy is going on.

People whose tactics I've grown familiar with, have suddenly changed those tactics, the most significant change being that they rarely, if ever, parry. Other key things include a steady decline in the number of fencers from outside clubs attending important events and the fact that the club I'm calling into question never hires outside judges to referee bouts.

Ultimately, I need to know- how do I prove someone is cheating and how do I stop them?

Thanks, in advance.

attila · 02-24-2001, 10:23 PM

Man be careful on this line of reasoning. Never use the word cheat unless you have caught someone redhanded.

A: Could be you guys are rookies and are not landing within the 1/25th of a second lockout time on the box.

B; Could be you have a poor armorer ,and are not able to determine if your weapons are grounding( this means that the your weapon believes it is hitting the bell of your opponent), hence your weapon is dead on the machine.

C: The club could have a bad box. But it would be bad for all fencers fencing on the box, not just you.

If there is a suspect box, you and a buddy should just hook up to it and have a go at a few touches and see what happens.......

damianip · 02-25-2001, 03:59 AM

I agree with Attila: be careful with the "c" word.

Have you tried a test re-touch on the same spot after the action has stopped? This sort of thing is usually reserved for lamés, but if it's happening regularly, you should try it. Just ask your opponent first.

If it's happening on doubles, it could very well be you're getting beat to the target. There are time when I swear I hit first but ended up with a touch against. It happens. They may be grazing your arm as you come in and then hitting again on your body as you close. The first touch locks out the machine but the second one is the one you feel.

I guess, conceivably, they could be a sweaty bunch and they're grounding through their grips, but most modern machines account for that.

You could also have dirty tips, slightly frayed insulation which shorts against the weapon when the hit is hard or loose tips. All these conditions could cause the intermiitent problems you're describing. Are both your tip screws in? The tip could be binding.

As far as parries go: it's épée. Many folks abandon the parry when going to épée. The name of the game is hit first, not hit and don't be hit.

Paolo

Catal · 02-25-2001, 07:20 AM

No, we've searched our weapons for bare wires and checked for grounding, everything is brand new and in working order.

It sometimes happens on doubles, but more often it happens when someone on my team has clearly hit first and no touch is scored.

As for lack of parrying, I wouldn't be so concerned seeing it happen, but I was seeing these tactics from somone who was literally standing in place, extending his arm and doing nothing. It's not so much the tactic that's causing alarm with me, it's the fashion in which it's applied- especially since I know their instructor frowns upon such a technique.

Where would such a device, if it exists, be hidden? One of their instructors was looking behind my bell pad, perhaps, checking that the wire was insulated, but he's the only one that does it.

attila · 02-25-2001, 10:49 AM

Hi Catal

If there is anything funky going on it would be inside the electrics of the socket. Just off the top of my head you could cheat by shorting the two hot wires by having a longer wire from the middle (b line) and get it near but not touching the hot line and maybe using your thumb to make the conection when you are somewhere near the target. But this would only help you. There is nothing YOU could do to the opponents weapon to ground it out. Also you could have a bad wire/cord between the machine and box. How about your body cords have you checked for broken wires. A good check is to undo the hold down screw and yank on the bare wires with pliers or hemostats and see if the wire gives way. When checking the wires on a dummy box, bend the cord and if there is any flicker on the lights, check it out.

MikeHarm · 02-25-2001, 02:41 PM

I had a similar effect happen with one of my epee's. What happened was that when I was trimming the contact spring to pass the shim test I didn't get the bottom of the spring quite flat so it was making intermittent contact even when the weapon had a good bend to it on a touch.

Mike

DarkTransient · 02-25-2001, 04:24 PM

Yep, I always use my portable microwave generator/epee to cheat. But sometimes people get suspicious of me because my opponent gets fried.

attila · 02-25-2001, 07:30 PM

Can I get one of those at Radio Shaft??

neevel · 02-25-2001, 09:17 PM

Catal-

Mike gave what strikes me as being the most likely cause of your not registering touches.
How does your armorer set up contact springs in the tips-- does s/he start by setting the spring too short to even reach the contacts and then pull it out until it just makes contact when the tip is depressed? If that's the case, then it's quite possible that the spring will close the contact when the tip's pushed straight down by the weight, but not if there's any sort of play in the tip when it hits at an angle (especially if the spring's been snipped off unevenly, like Mike found). Same thing goes if the spring has gotten bent a bit when adjusted.

If you are being really conservative with your contact spring adjustment, try going from the other direction-- make the spring long enough so that it fails shims, then adjust it shorter till it just passes. See if that reduces the incidence of dead hits. Replacing old, worn points that have a lot of play in them might also be worthwhile.

Finally, give all your body cords a going over-- tighten up contact screws, and spread out any pins that have become squashed in to ensure they make a good, tight fit with the socket.

As a note, when epeeists talk about being 'grounded', what it refers to is whether their own weapon is grounded so that touches that arrive on it won't register. It could also refer to whether a metal piste, if used, is properly grounded.

-Dave Neevel

Catal · 02-25-2001, 10:11 PM

I set the contact springs myself, by turning them in until the pass the shim test.

To ensure that the contact springs are flat and land as such when the tip is depressed, I hold the tip down and turn it completely around with the weight spring in the barrel before I screw it in place

Our team uses the orange body cords made by Prieur. We used to use the Blade body cords, but the prongs kept getting compressed, like you said, Neevel.

About being grounded, I would think asking an epeeist if their weapon is grounded is as needful a question as asking someone if their pants are on before they walk out in public. You'd get a yellow card for not having a passing weapon anyway, so why ask when it's common knowledge that your weapon should be grounded? The people I overheard were experienced fencers, they should know better than to use malfunctioning weapons. As for the pistes, they are metal but none of them are 100% grounded.

Gav · 02-26-2001, 02:52 AM

Is this problem confined to you? If it is do as people have suggested and check your epee. Cheating is the least likely. However don't stand for anyone fiddling with their body wire during a bout - they COULD be cheating.

Having said all that we have the same problem at our club - it's a faulty spool. We keep taking it out for fixing but somhow it keeps ending up back in the mix. We (the fencers)suspect that the spool is shorting out (thus grounding the weapon). It only happens when you are moving (it passes the tip test if you are standing still) and the fault stays with the spool (if you switch sides).

So if you didn't know it was happening (if you were new to the club for example) it could look mighty suspicious.

Lumberg · 02-26-2001, 04:43 AM

Don't you test weapons before the bout??? If you aren't registering a touch after you and your opponent hook up, then you know there's a problem.

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Lumberg.
"...ahhh, we have sort of a problem here... yeah, you apparently didn't put one of the new cover sheets on your TPS report"

Catal · 02-26-2001, 06:47 AM

Y'know, that suggestion about the spool might be the issue. At the last minute the host school decided to switch the wiring, so that we were using the wires pulled over from another strip. I dunno, just seemed odd.
I don't know if the problem was confined to us because no one else was using the spool before the event our team had against the other club. We only used the spool for that event.

Yeah, Lumberg- we were testing the weapons, it's a competition; you have to- and yes, the lights were going off.

Gav · 02-26-2001, 01:06 PM

Yes Lumberg we do test before we run the bout, but as I mentioned it's intermittent and hard to pin down. Most of our spools look the same and although they are labelled sometimes an inexperienced club member picks up the dodgy one. We all know about it so it's not a big deal - but it sounded like the same problem that Catal had so I thought I would throw it in.

arcon · 02-26-2001, 02:25 PM

[ 10-19-2001: Message edited by: arcon ]

Catal · 02-26-2001, 09:44 PM

You make fencing sound as if it's an exclusive society of honest people and that making what I feel is a justified accusation about the conduct of a few fencers is blasphemy against the honor and character of the life we call fencing. The "c" word? Oh, my- let us not rock the boat by using the "c" word.

I don't know what district or club you come from, but where I do things, the best way to get clean judging is to hire USFA certified judges not affiliated with the host club. There's a reason the USFA has a Fencing Officials Commision

I may not have decades of experience, but in the four years I have been fencing competitively, I've never seen the kind of happenings or "conspiratorial" like activity among a small group of fencers such as I've seen recently.

I'm open to the idea that my equipment is faulty; I'd rather that it were. But, in the numerous tournaments I've competed in against the club in question, I see the same activity with same few fencers and always when their master instructor is away or distracted. That's the way I see it and that's the way I'm repeating it.

God forbid that one of fencing's own accuse another of its ilk of improper conduct, but we fencers are not so pious that none of us could submit to the dreaded act of c-ing. When I see so much questionable activity, I'm not going to stay in line and be a good little fencer because some members can't fathom the idea that fencers are not the end all be all of morality in the sports world.

Next time I go back to that club, I'll know what to look for. I thank everyone for any helpful response.

Bugaboo · 02-27-2001, 08:56 AM

There was a really thought-provoking, in-depth investigation broadcast recently on the TV show, "20/20," in which it was revealed the federal government was getting under-the-table payoffs at international sports events for arranging U.S. competitors to fail. The reporter glossed over fencing, though -- comments were made about a "secret scoring box disruptor" that agents were alleged to insert after hours. No followup questions, darnit!

Anyway, the point is that your club might be targeted for that sort of covert subterfuge. Do any of your competitors have foreign backgrounds? Does your local area see a lot of international traffic? How well do you REALLY know your armorer? Take a close look at those possibilities.

And I'd seriously consider investing in some counter-espionage equipment (widely available on the Internet).

attila · 02-27-2001, 09:07 AM

Well if you are sure the dorks are cheaters, why go play with them????????? Just hold more tourney's at your club or find other competetive venues and problem solved.......

veeco · 02-27-2001, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bugaboo:
There was a really thought-provoking, in-depth investigation broadcast recently on the TV show, "20/20," in which it was revealed the federal government was getting under-the-table payoffs at international sports events for arranging U.S. competitors to fail. The reporter glossed over fencing, though -- comments were made about a "secret scoring box disruptor" that agents were alleged to insert after hours. No followup questions, darnit!

Anyway, the point is that your club might be targeted for that sort of covert subterfuge. Do any of your competitors have foreign backgrounds? Does your local area see a lot of international traffic? How well do you REALLY know your armorer? Take a close look at those possibilities.

And I'd seriously consider investing in some counter-espionage equipment (widely available on the Internet).

Oh my God. I hope that was not serious Bugaboo... Or else you might want to find yourself a psychiatrist, for you seem to be getting into a deep state of paranioa. That can't be good, man.

Seriously, how could someone believe so much stuff? I mean come on, let's admit it, sometimes there are athletes who can beat the U.S. athletes and it's not because they have been bribed! Just think about it. It doesn't make any sense at all...

oiuyt · 02-27-2001, 09:29 AM

Just think about what needs to happen to have touches against not register in epee.... SOMEWHERE either the box doesn't get the signal (a break in your A or B) or the signal gets grounded... Everything's on your side except for their whites... Unless someone knows of a non-obvious way to make those conductive, and here they'd have to be REALLY conductive all the way down to the metal plates that they use as soles on their fencing shoes.... If your equipment is working then it's probably somewhere in the strip equipment, either the floor cord, or reel, or (unlikely) in the machine itself.

As to the hiring of outside referees, that's not strange at all. At least in all four divisions that I've fenced in, nearly everything was self-directed, with referees hired only for the very biggest tournaments. When clubs do hire people it's not surprising that it'll always be the same people that they have contacts with. You also see that at the collegiate level. When my school hosted meets a couple times a year we'd almost always have the same group of directors, they were who we knew were good and that we could count on and that were in the area and likely to be available.

More likely to be inadvertant equipment failure than cheating, but if you do find something that's really as subtle as it would ahve to be for you to need to ask the question would you post it here so we'll all know what to be on the look out for? Thx.

-B

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"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"