Was it worth it, or not?

[L.O.A.S.]

Originally Posted by Calder

First off let me put this much less gently and more blunt...being in the miltary, and having been activated twice within the last two years....I believe this....as much as I respect other cultures, I do not feel that the Iraqui culture is worht dying for. I dont care about their freedom, I dont care about their bloodshed, and I dont care about their problems...not anymore...and not when it costs OUR lives.

Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die:

Although I do not agree with your views, I have the greatest respect for you and the rest of our military, who will get the job done regardless of personal beliefs.
If we are successful in Iraq, the positive impact it could have on stablilizing the middle east and hopefully making the world a safer place......wouldn't that be a worthy cause?

[Epee_Pox]

Originally Posted by scrapinpeg

Sorry, Epee Pox, I couldn't help myself and sang it for you. Yay Doom!

Westley, care to join in the chorus?

That's okay. I'm sure you can do the GIR voice better.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by jBirch

No, not at all. I never said it needed to be done in isolation. It needs to be done in support of a popular uprising, not in spite of it.

OK. So does Iraq qualify? The Kurds were sure involved in one of those uprisings...the Shiites in the south of the country had been, too, before we cut them loose and left them to face Saddam alone. Is that enough to be "popular"? What percentage of the people must be involved?

There were large numbers of Tories in the colonies who, just like Iraq's Sunni minority, opposed the American Revolution. At what point is the magic line crossed, which justifies foreign support? 50% of the population ( or maybe just the citizenry )? 60% 75%

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

OK. So does Iraq qualify? The Kurds were sure involved in one of those uprisings...the Shiites in the south of the country had been, too, before we cut them loose and left them to face Saddam alone. Is that enough to be "popular"? What percentage of the people must be involved?

There were large numbers of Tories in the colonies who, just like Iraq's Sunni minority, opposed the American Revolution. At what point is the magic line crossed, which justifies foreign support? 50% of the population ( or maybe just the citizenry )? 60% 75%

Well, did the Iraqis liberate themselves or did the US do it for them? Did the Americans liberate themselves or did the French do it for them?

[Calder]

Originally Posted by jBirch

You and I are on the same wavelength, I think. So I'll pose the question to you that I'm wrestling with,

What next?

Do you withdraw unilaterally from Iraq? Do you stay and fight? How do you fight? Who do you fight? What do you fight with? If it's not worth it to trade your freedom for theirs, then what is to be done about that? How do you ensure that the cost of the mission is worth it?

Ok, two things..
First....Soldier, my apologies, your right, you are there (at the Air Force Academy) and that deserves comending, I think what I said was a bit un-called for so I apologize. The point of a discussion board is not just to voice ones own opinions but to consider those of others as well.

In response to jbirch....I DEFINETELY agree....this is the question that a lot of us ask, but as someone posted before....

ours is not to question why
ours is but to do and die
Thats the thing with a volunteer military, if you dont like the idea that you may have to fight and do things you dont want to, dont join.

There are individuals, the Iraqi police, civilians, and loads of people who dont deserve it...who are dying for their freedom, so no, I dont think that we should withdraw. I think that it upsets me a bit, along with many others of us that in the military there seems to be so much press against us. I mean, we feel like we are fighting against public opinion (at least conveyed in media) and the insurgents...and thats hard. Although I bet there is a lot more public support for our troops then a lot of the media would have us believe. This wears on you after a while. It can really break you down when all you hear is the negative all the time...there is so much good being done over there, but its time that more of a focus be taken on that, and a little more credit be given to the people of Iraq to begin to take over themselves, and I think they will with the upcoming elections. I hope they will. The time for us to get out and let them rule their own country is close. I know it will never truly happen that smoothly and that quickly, but one can hope.

But the point still remains, that at a certain point, a sense of self preservation must be reached in which a country begins to pride itself on the resolve and development of itself, and the sustaining of its own interests....I think this is a double edged sword though. I think that being in Iraq IS in our countries interest, but I think that its getting real close to where it is in our best interest to start preserving our own too. This was part of my original point. I have worked directly with some Brits over the last while, and let me tell you these are some of the best poeple I have ever met in my life. I hope they know how much we (soldiers) appreciate their brotherhood in the coalition...that's why it makes me sick to see them dying...I cant help but feel some responsibilty to that being an American, and this campaign being (perdominately) spear-headed by us. We knew the "war on terror" was going to be difficult, I just think a lot of us didnt know how "grey" things could get. There is no light at the end of the tunnel quite yet....

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by Calder

In response to jbirch....I DEFINETELY agree....this is the question that a lot of us ask, but as someone posted before....

ours is not to question why
ours is but to do and die
Thats the thing with a volunteer military, if you dont like the idea that you may have to fight and do things you dont want to, dont join.

There are individuals, the Iraqi police, civilians, and loads of people who dont deserve it...who are dying for their freedom, so no, I dont think that we should withdraw. I think that it upsets me a bit, along with many others of us that in the military there seems to be so much press against us. I mean, we feel like we are fighting against public opinion (at least conveyed in media) and the insurgents...and thats hard.

You think you've got it bad? Try being in the Canadian Forces some time. In the US at least, you get treated like a productive member of society. In Canada you get spit on.

I remember a crusty old RSM who commented on the "do and die" lyric. He said (and I quote), "Your job is to kill the other guy and stay alive."

In a similiar vein, a colonel buddy of mine once commented: "It's not mindless robots that the military needs, but rather highly intelligent individuals with discretion, desire and determination. Our job is to win and we spend our resources to get there. 'Mission, men, metal, me.' We fail and people die."

So here's another question I've been wrestling with: Is it possible to question the war and support the troops? Can you agree that the troops are doing a fine job but the politicians are the ones dropping the ball? Is it possible to bring the troops home without losing the war?

[L.O.A.S.]

Originally Posted by jBirch

So here's another question I've been wrestling with: Is it possible to question the war and support the troops? Can you agree that the troops are doing a fine job but the politicians are the ones dropping the ball? Is it possible to bring the troops home without losing the war?

I think it depends. If you go up to a soldier and say "I support you" while wearing a "No blood for Oil" T-shirt, he may not believe your sincerity. If you spend your weekends organizing anti-war rallies, I don't think he'll feel supported. Of course you can disagree with the war and politicians, but how would your actions and words be taken by the soldier?

[darius]

So here's another question I've been wrestling with: Is it possible to question the war and support the troops? Can you agree that the troops are doing a fine job but the politicians are the ones dropping the ball? Is it possible to bring the troops home without losing the war?

It's very possible to do this. The troops are not in Iraq directly by their own volition. Their job is to go where the civilian leadership tells them to go, and do the job they signed up for.

However, the troops are over there doing that job, which can have a very large impact on their lives. If it comes to light that the current political leadership is failing them -- either by lying or misleading about the premises for war, failing to send enough troops, failing to spend the money to protect those troops, etc...I feel that it's not just possible to dissent against the political leadership, it's a *duty*.

We must protect those who protect us.

darius

[scrapinpeg]

Saw this in the news today:

With the Iraqi elections coming up, the week is likely to be filled with stories of the continued instability there. But behind the headlines are many stories of Americans helping to make real progress to rebuild the country. Last week, actor Gary Sinise was in Washington to brief Congressman Dana Rohrabacher on the group he co-founded with Laura Hillenbrand, author of the book "Seabiscuit," to collect and distribute school supplies to Iraqi children.

Mr. Sinise is best known for his roles on CBS's "CSI: New York" and as a Vietnam amputee in the Tom Hanks film "Forrest Gump," but he spends a great deal of time touring with the United Service Organizations, or USO. A longtime supporter of U.S. troops, Mr. Sinise began visiting the Middle East for the USO in 2003. During his second trip to Iraq, he saw how much the troops appreciated being with the Iraqi school children.

"I went to this school, and I saw what it did for the troops to go out there and visit these kids and to see these smiling kids," Mr. Sinise said. "These soldiers had helped to rebuild the school. So when they showed up, the kids just ran out and threw their arms around the soldiers. I just saw a lot of goodwill there that day, and I wanted to reinforce that in some way."

He promised the troops he would try to ship school supplies back to them so they could give them to the children. Since then, his organization, Save Iraqi Children, has branched out to include the collection of items to help children ward off the bitter Iraqi winter nights. Donations of blankets and shoes are routinely shipped to Iraq by Federal Express, which charges nothing for the flights.

"Good things are happening over in Iraq," Mr. Sinise says. "On the nightly news it looks like all hell is breaking loose, but I know, from being over there, there's another side to the story."

[L.O.A.S.]

Originally Posted by darius

I feel that it's not just possible to dissent against the political leadership, it's a *duty*.

darius

Sure its your duty. I just don't think you can do your duty and still show support for the troops (or rather, you have to consider in which manner you do your duty, as to not be taken the wrong way by the troops).

[Rogue]

IMO,
Half of this war IS public relations and how are media portrays our success/failure. The more the media makes it look like a total disaster over there the more encouraged our enemy gets. They believe if they "bloody enough noses" we will pull out (Somalia) because the public support would not be there.
While it is important for the media to cover the tragedies it is equally important to cover the victories.

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by Calder

Ok, two things..
First....Soldier, my apologies, your right, you are there (at the Air Force Academy) and that deserves comending, I think what I said was a bit un-called for so I apologize. The point of a discussion board is not just to voice ones own opinions but to consider those of others as well.

In response to jbirch....I DEFINETELY agree....this is the question that a lot of us ask, but as someone posted before....

ours is not to question why
ours is but to do and die
Thats the thing with a volunteer military, if you dont like the idea that you may have to fight and do things you dont want to, dont join.

There are individuals, the Iraqi police, civilians, and loads of people who dont deserve it...who are dying for their freedom, so no, I dont think that we should withdraw. I think that it upsets me a bit, along with many others of us that in the military there seems to be so much press against us. I mean, we feel like we are fighting against public opinion (at least conveyed in media) and the insurgents...and thats hard. Although I bet there is a lot more public support for our troops then a lot of the media would have us believe. This wears on you after a while. It can really break you down when all you hear is the negative all the time...there is so much good being done over there, but its time that more of a focus be taken on that, and a little more credit be given to the people of Iraq to begin to take over themselves, and I think they will with the upcoming elections. I hope they will. The time for us to get out and let them rule their own country is close. I know it will never truly happen that smoothly and that quickly, but one can hope.

But the point still remains, that at a certain point, a sense of self preservation must be reached in which a country begins to pride itself on the resolve and development of itself, and the sustaining of its own interests....I think this is a double edged sword though. I think that being in Iraq IS in our countries interest, but I think that its getting real close to where it is in our best interest to start preserving our own too. This was part of my original point. I have worked directly with some Brits over the last while, and let me tell you these are some of the best poeple I have ever met in my life. I hope they know how much we (soldiers) appreciate their brotherhood in the coalition...that's why it makes me sick to see them dying...I cant help but feel some responsibilty to that being an American, and this campaign being (perdominately) spear-headed by us. We knew the "war on terror" was going to be difficult, I just think a lot of us didnt know how "grey" things could get. There is no light at the end of the tunnel quite yet....

Thanks, Calder. It's all good.

I don't disagree with you totally - we can't go throwing US troops at every little spat across the world. But there are sometimes when we should just go do the right thing, even if it's not completely in our own interests - just because it's a good thing to do. Yes, we do need to find a balance there.

My original reaction was because your post seemed to read, "We should never risk our necks for anybody, ever, unless we're getting something out of it."

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by darius

It's very possible to do this. The troops are not in Iraq directly by their own volition. Their job is to go where the civilian leadership tells them to go, and do the job they signed up for.

However, the troops are over there doing that job, which can have a very large impact on their lives. If it comes to light that the current political leadership is failing them -- either by lying or misleading about the premises for war, failing to send enough troops, failing to spend the money to protect those troops, etc...I feel that it's not just possible to dissent against the political leadership, it's a *duty*.

We must protect those who protect us.

darius

Yes, you can question the war, while still supporting the troops (as long as you're careful about the impressions you give).

No, I don't believe we could pull out at this point, and still win.

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by scrapinpeg

Saw this in the news today:

With the Iraqi elections coming up, the week is likely to be filled with stories of the continued instability there. But behind the headlines are many stories of Americans helping to make real progress to rebuild the country. Last week, actor Gary Sinise was in Washington to brief Congressman Dana Rohrabacher on the group he co-founded with Laura Hillenbrand, author of the book "Seabiscuit," to collect and distribute school supplies to Iraqi children.

Mr. Sinise is best known for his roles on CBS's "CSI: New York" and as a Vietnam amputee in the Tom Hanks film "Forrest Gump," but he spends a great deal of time touring with the United Service Organizations, or USO. A longtime supporter of U.S. troops, Mr. Sinise began visiting the Middle East for the USO in 2003. During his second trip to Iraq, he saw how much the troops appreciated being with the Iraqi school children.

"I went to this school, and I saw what it did for the troops to go out there and visit these kids and to see these smiling kids," Mr. Sinise said. "These soldiers had helped to rebuild the school. So when they showed up, the kids just ran out and threw their arms around the soldiers. I just saw a lot of goodwill there that day, and I wanted to reinforce that in some way."

He promised the troops he would try to ship school supplies back to them so they could give them to the children. Since then, his organization, Save Iraqi Children, has branched out to include the collection of items to help children ward off the bitter Iraqi winter nights. Donations of blankets and shoes are routinely shipped to Iraq by Federal Express, which charges nothing for the flights.

"Good things are happening over in Iraq," Mr. Sinise says. "On the nightly news it looks like all hell is breaking loose, but I know, from being over there, there's another side to the story."

Gary Sinise does USO? I didn't know that - awesome!

My grandparents met when he was in Germany during WWII, and she an American USO worker, helping to organize a dance...

[CutLass]

Originally Posted by Soldier

Yes, you can question the war, while still supporting the troops (as long as you're careful about the impressions you give).

No, I don't believe we could pull out at this point, and still win.

At what point can we pull out? And when we do, what do we win?

[Have At You]

Originally Posted by Soldier

Gary Sinise does USO? I didn't know that - awesome!

My grandparents met when he was in Germany during WWII, and she an American USO worker, helping to organize a dance...

Wow, Gary Sinise is older than he looks!

[Soldier]

"He" = My grandfather. Oops.

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by CutLass

At what point can we pull out? And when we do, what do we win?

When can we pull out? Probably when things start to stabilize more; when it looks like the Iraqi government/police/military will be able to stand on their own two feet against crime, terrorism, etc.

What do we win? Potentially, a humanitarian, progressive, maybe even Democratic nation in the midst of a lot of...not.

Or, maybe we've just made a relatively good country out of a really bad one. Which would make life better for millions of people.

So, what do we get out of it? Not really sure how to answer that...

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by L.O.A.S.

I think it depends. If you go up to a soldier and say "I support you" while wearing a "No blood for Oil" T-shirt, he may not believe your sincerity. If you spend your weekends organizing anti-war rallies, I don't think he'll feel supported. Of course you can disagree with the war and politicians, but how would your actions and words be taken by the soldier?

Call me a dreamer, but I believe the best way to support our troops