'The Rest of the Story' in Iraq

[Rogue]

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtri...680555557.html

Worth reading to see the other side of the story.
Any comments?

[L.O.A.S.]

No question about media bias. Too bad the US military wasn't better at putting out the information on all their successes (both on the battlefield and in the community). Forget the main stream media, what about the blogosphere?

[Larrison]

Also agree, about media bias. http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/006177.php

[L.O.A.S.]

Great link.

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by L.O.A.S.

No question about media bias. Too bad the US military wasn't better at putting out the information on all their successes (both on the battlefield and in the community). Forget the main stream media, what about the blogosphere?

Not a bad idea; might be something to look into. Unfortunately, the military isn't historically concerned with media; it has only recently become a weapon. More unfortunately, change is not the strong suit of the military - we're starting to adapt, but it's going to take a bit of time. Just wish our own countrymen could help, instead of being the source of the problem.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by Soldier

..Unfortunately, the military isn't historically concerned with media; it has only recently become a weapon. ...

Rubbish.

Propaganda has been used in one form or another since men sat down around the campfire and said, "I caught this fish. It was THIS big and then it got away."

There are plenty of tales of military commanders using information in one form or another as a weapon.

[scrapinpeg]

Much as I despise certain results, I am nevertheless glad that we have an obsessively critical media. Sure, they're essentially a volunteer intelligence agency for any opponent we may have, and a steady source of content for enemy propaganda, but they are still a kind of conscience that keeps us on our best behavior.

And, since we do know that they serve as an intelligence agency for the rest of the world, it is a failing of our leadership for not taking advantage of that fact to further our strategic goals. Sun-tsu is rolling in his grave.

[esskreemr]

It's interesting to hear the other side of the story. I would like to see more stories about the successful humanitarian operations in Iraq.

Unfortunately, this articles main premise strikes me as odd. He seems to relate the "good things happening in Iraq" to insurgent body counts. I find it somewhat disturbing.

[Gav]

Sun-tsu is rolling in his grave.

I heartily agree.

Although I've read that the US army is more influenced by the incomplete writings of X [damn long term memory loss has struck again - can't remember his name; 19th centuary guy I think -if anyone wants to enlighten me I'd appreciate it].

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by Gav

Rubbish.

Propaganda has been used in one form or another since men sat down around the campfire and said, "I caught this fish. It was THIS big and then it got away."

There are plenty of tales of military commanders using information in one form or another as a weapon.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is propaganda not usually run more by the state, and less the military?

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

It's interesting to hear the other side of the story. I would like to see more stories about the successful humanitarian operations in Iraq.

Unfortunately, this articles main premise strikes me as odd. He seems to relate the "good things happening in Iraq" to insurgent body counts. I find it somewhat disturbing.

Well, that is how one wins a war (so long as the politicians stay out of it).

Speaking of humanitarian victories - got this forwarded from my sister. The original email is attributed to Gunnery Sergeant Mark J. Francis, 1st Battalion, USMC. Can somebody remind me what that site is for checking urban legends? I'm pretty sure this one is real, but I have trouble trusting forwarded emails. In any case:

"As you know, I asked for toys for the Iraqi children over here and several people (Americans that support us) sent them over by the box. On each patrol we take through the city, we take as many toys as will fit in our pockets and hand them out as we can. The kids take the toys and run to show them off as if they were worth a million bucks. We are as friendly as we can be to everyone we see, but especially so with the kids. Most of them don't have any idea what is going on and are completely innocent in all of this.


On one such patrol, our lead security vehicle stopped in the middle of the street. This is not normal and is very unsafe, so the following vehicles began to inquire over the radio. The lead vehicle reported a little girl sitting in the road and said she just would not budge. The command vehicle told the lead to simply go around her and to be kind as they did. The street was wide enough to allow this maneuver and so they waved to her as they drove around.


As the vehicles went around her, I soon saw her sitting there and in her arms she was clutching a little bear that we had handed her a few patrols back. Feeling an immediate connection to the girl, I radioed that we were going to stop. The rest of the convoy paused and I got out the make sure she was OK. The little girl looked scared and concerned, but there was a warmth in her eyes toward me. As I knelt down to talk to her, she moved over and pointed to a mine in the road.


Immediately a cordon was set as the Marine convoy assumed a defensive posture around the site. The mine was destroyed in place."

[scrapinpeg]

Originally Posted by Gav

I heartily agree.

Although I've read that the US army is more influenced by the incomplete writings of X [damn long term memory loss has struck again - can't remember his name; 19th centuary guy I think -if anyone wants to enlighten me I'd appreciate it].

von Clauswitz. His "On War" is a classic of military strategy.

[Gav]

I suppose it depends on what you think propaganda means.

from dictionary.com

1. The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.
2. Material disseminated by the advocates or opponents of a doctrine or cause: wartime propaganda.

I'd say the above article [no matter how well intentioned] matches both. Do you know the guy writing the article? Do you know if he wrote the article? the fact that it comes from a source inside the army and extolls that army marks it as propaganda. It's your independent media's job to tell the [truthful?] story.

If you have you military prepping and publishing stories about themselves then there is the inevitable question of bias [no matter how well intentioned]. I believe the US military has an intelligence corps does it not? Isn't it part of that corps job to spread [dis]information about your armed forces to their enemies? You can correct me on the exact division that does this if you want. Anyway, as this division exists, it's job is to put out storis about your army then it is clear that your army is spreading propaganda. The UK armed forces have a similair unit - there is nothing intrinscly wrong with that - every army should have one.

[Gav]

As a side note:

I did a little googling while I was writing this. And I came up with this article:

http://newyorker.com/talk/content/?0...a_talk_mcgrath

Why was I googling for more information on World Tribune? Well I took the time to look at the rest of the site and it clearly has a strong right-wing bias. And I think that bias is shown in that article - probably from the author - althouth the editorial staff at the site may have had a hand in it as well..

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by scrapinpeg

von Clauswitz. His "On War" is a classic of military strategy.

Yes, it's Clausewitz. Who was heavily influenced by Sun Tzu.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by scrapinpeg

von Clauswitz. His "On War" is a classic of military strategy.

Cheers Scrapningpeg! It's been a while since I read much military philosophy - it was an interest of mine in my early twenties.

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by Gav

I suppose it depends on what you think propaganda means.

from dictionary.com

1. The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.
2. Material disseminated by the advocates or opponents of a doctrine or cause: wartime propaganda.

I'd say the above article [no matter how well intentioned] matches both. Do you know the guy writing the article? Do you know if he wrote the article? the fact that it comes from a source inside the army and extolls that army marks it as propaganda. It's your independent media's job to tell the [truthful?] story.

If you have you military prepping and publishing stories about themselves then there is the inevitable question of bias [no matter how well intentioned]. I believe the US military has an intelligence corps does it not? Isn't it part of that corps job to spread [dis]information about your armed forces to their enemies? You can correct me on the exact division that does this if you want. Anyway, as this division exists, it's job is to put out storis about your army then it is clear that your army is spreading propaganda. The UK armed forces have a similair unit - there is nothing intrinscly wrong with that - every army should have one.

Then I'll start putting together interviews for you, regular accounts from people who've actually been over there. You can call it propaganda if you like.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by Soldier

Yes, it's Clausewitz. Who was heavily influenced by Sun Tzu.

I don't believe he was influenced by Sun Tzu. His (Clausewitz) work was never finished.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by Soldier

Then I'll start putting together interviews for you, regular accounts from people who've actually been over there. You can call it propaganda if you like.

[sigh]

You seem to have taken that quite personally.

Neither you nor I know that that article is anything other than propaganda. Or for that matter anything other than the truth. What I was trying to point out to you was that your assertion that propaganda was new was wrong and, that the idea that the army doesn'y 'do' propaganda is also incorrect.

What I will say about that article is that it is clearly biased (very biased in fact). It has also come from a biased source and that makes me automatically suspicous.

No need to send me personal accounts. Mergs blog is enough for me. If I need accounts of any of the horrors that have gone in Iraq all I need to do is speak to the serving British soldiers that I know.

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by Soldier

Speaking of humanitarian victories - got this forwarded from my sister. The original email is attributed to Gunnery Sergeant Mark J. Francis, 1st Battalion, USMC. Can somebody remind me what that site is for checking urban legends? I'm pretty sure this one is real, but I have trouble trusting forwarded emails. In any case:

There is a female soldier serving in Iraq who regularly calls into a local radio station. It is interesting to hear her running the bovious gamut between emotions. Some days she seems depressed other days elated. She started a "Kicks for Kids" campaign to send shoes to children in Iraq.
http://www.emrn.com/HTML/addiemessage0.htm

This is a grass roots campaign that was started by a soldier.