Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

bernard c · 01-14-2005, 01:51 AM

Jan. 8th, 2005, Open Men's Foil Gallery

Katman · 01-14-2005, 03:26 AM

Excellent pictures. Were these the new timings?

bernard c · 01-14-2005, 03:45 AM

They were the new timings, using a mix of Favero and Eclipes. The touch lights on the scoring machine lighted 15 mS after first valid contact, and at that point initiated the photo which was captured about 34 milliseconds after that, for a total time since first valid contact of 49 mS. Although I like these photos, the ones at 18 mS with a different camera gave better blade bends and more feet off the floor, however it had other drawbacks. I am at work on a solution.

Since these photos were taken after the optimal time, they do show the aftermath of several successful flicks to the back.

akaiyuki · 01-14-2005, 04:42 AM

Very nice pictures! They are amusing shots...
That made my day

Gav · 01-14-2005, 04:56 AM

Nice pics! Isn't funny how daft people look when caught in the middle of a Fencing action.

Zilverzmurfen · 01-14-2005, 09:02 AM

Very nice pics!

(Was this a foil tournament only? Would have loved to see some épée pics.)

daveappr · 01-14-2005, 09:06 AM

Nice pics!! I'm looking forward to your epee photos..

bernard c · 01-14-2005, 10:21 AM

This Photo Tournament had only the open men's foil event. I do have epee photos on pages 2 and 3 of the previous shots gallery.

I'm curious to know if you can learn something about technique from these. For example, a number of the shots from the Photo Tournament show successful flicks to the back. (On some you can see the scoring machine lights.) None of the photos were manually triggered, so one or the other (or both) scoring machine lights triggered the camera. Refer to the photo numbers shown faintly at the lower left corner of each shot.

Rolls · 01-14-2005, 10:57 AM

While you might be able to learn something from these photos, I think you would be better off using sport video analysis software like Dartfish (website ).

With that said, I think the photos have an intrinsic artistic value. Did you send some to the local paper with a press release?

My favorite was this one:
http://www.flickershutter.com/Photo%...Gallery/78.htm

Check out the look on his face, and how his hand is clenched.

So, when will you be selling the box/camera trigger commercially? I want one. Will you be taking photos at national tournaments? Is it a universal adapter or does it only work with your brand camera?

Rolls.

edew · 01-14-2005, 12:41 PM

USFA will definitely not approve because of the flash torches. They are definitely perceptible by fencers on other strips and may be valid reason for a fencer to complain.

We all didn't mind, but I can see how some fencer might be upset by them.

As it is, I think it's best to keep this local (not just local to the Bay Area), as it does have great value. I intend to show some pix to my students to show them that, yes, arms are often extended to make the hit.

bernard c · 01-14-2005, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edew

USFA will definitely not approve because of the flash torches. They are definitely perceptible by fencers on other strips and may be valid reason for a fencer to complain.

Wouldn't a separate room or curtained-off area be a solution? Then if both fencers approve, do we still have a problem?

edew · 01-14-2005, 01:58 PM

National events are hardly show case events. They're meat markets where they bring fencers through and run them through the mill, getting the bouts done as fast as possible.

You might want to consider the Duel In The Desert. The gala event in the evening is held separately from the competition (the meat market portion). There, the event is held in one room and the two fencers probably won't mind, as long as both are equally subjected to the flash.

However, the lighting is dark already and they do have video capture, which might not like the sudden outburst from a flash everytime there's a touch.

bernard c · 01-14-2005, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edew

However, the lighting is dark already and they do have video capture, which might not like the sudden outburst from a flash everytime there's a touch.

Take a look at any televised NBA or Div. I NCAA basketball game. You can plainly see the areana strobes. If you have TiVo, watch frame by frame; when the strobes fire--and they fire whenever there's a dunk or rebound--you'll see a frame that looks like Alamogordo, NM, on July 16, 1945. Areana strobes and TV get along fine. The following is part of the strobe rules (which mine adhere to) for basketball:

Quote:

The purpose of this policy is to provide the fullest high-quality still photographic coverage possible for media agencies in deadline situation without seriously affecting the quality of the network telecasts of the games.

Regarding EDEW's other points, they are well taken and I appreciate them, as I appreciate all constructive critiscism.

Capt. Slo-mo · 01-14-2005, 03:39 PM

Bernard: apologies if you posted this elsewhere, but with the flash augmentation, what is your effective shutter speed during the exposure? And how many frames do you take per scoring box trigger?

Stylothek · 01-14-2005, 03:51 PM

BEAUTIFUL pictures, I could spend an hour just looking at them.
Bernard, tell me, what camera and exposure times did you use? I'm looking into getting a digital SLR cam soon, so I'd appreciate if you could tell me what model you use and how content you are with it.
Thanks,
til

bernard c · 01-14-2005, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

Bernard: apologies if you posted this elsewhere, but with the flash augmentation, what is your effective shutter speed during the exposure? And how many frames do you take per scoring box trigger?

The effective shutter speed is approximately 0.2 mS, or 1/5000 sec, and is governed by the duration of the flash lamps. The flash starts fast and mostly extinguishes fast but it does have a long, dim tail that can be seen on overexposed, fast-moving highlights against a darkfield background. For example the flat end of the foil tip can do it when parrying. My lamps are faster than any production lamps of this type on the market. If you look closely, you will just barely see motion blur. You might be interested to know that EDEW's foil tip was the fastest moving object recorded at the tournament, as shown in one of the posted photos.

Currently it's one exposure per phrase, and whichever is the first light to come on is the trigger. Two frames could be captured with some enhancement to the current system.

bernard c · 01-14-2005, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stylothek

BEAUTIFUL pictures, I could spend an hour just looking at them.
Bernard, tell me, what camera and exposure times did you use? I'm looking into getting a digital SLR cam soon, so I'd appreciate if you could tell me what model you use and how content you are with it.
Thanks,
til

No, thank YOU!

I've tried three totally different kinds of cameras, and all have serious drawbacks. The perfect camera for this application does not currently exist on the market.

edew · 01-14-2005, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bernard c

Take a look at any televised NBA or Div. I NCAA basketball game. You can plainly see the areana strobes. If you have TiVo, watch frame by frame; when the strobes fire--and they fire whenever there's a dunk or rebound--you'll see a frame that looks like Alamogordo, NM, on July 16, 1945. Areana strobes and TV get along fine. The following is part of the strobe rules (which mine adhere to) for basketball:

Regarding EDEW's other points, they are well taken and I appreciate them, as I appreciate all constructive critiscism.

The video camera's distance to the basketball court, plus the overall bright ambient lighting at a basketball game is not the same was what you will get at a more intimate affair such as the DITD or even in a separate room fencing event. There, the whole place is much smaller and tighter and the flashes may distract fencers.

Also, the flashes used by photographers at basketball courtside are hardly in league with the ones you used at the Photo tournament. Yours are hefty chunks of equipment compared to their camera mounted units. The amount of light yours put out is quite a bit more, and that's reflected in the fact that you're taking 1/5000 of a second (or whatever the shutter speed is).

Welted 24/7 · 01-14-2005, 04:42 PM

Nice pictures. Some of them are funny as hell...like this one.

http://www.flickershutter.com/Photo%...Gallery/85.htm

"Tee-hee, that tickles!"

veeco · 01-14-2005, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edew

Also, the flashes used by photographers at basketball courtside are hardly in league with the ones you used at the Photo tournament. Yours are hefty chunks of equipment compared to their camera mounted units. The amount of light yours put out is quite a bit more, and that's reflected in the fact that you're taking 1/5000 of a second (or whatever the shutter speed is).

I don't think you can compare them in terms of the amount of light they output. I think the camera mounted ones actually are more detrimental to the fencing because they most of the time flash straight into your eyes, therefore the potential for being blinded with those is much higher.

Also, basketball courts are equiped with strobes in the ceiling of the arena. Any decent sports photographer who shoots basketball will use those. Most of the time, the units you see on top of the photographer's cameras are remote devices that trigger the strobes. They don't emit any light on their own.